please explain the unrealistic expectations

College Search & Selection
1

<p>I see a lot of kids on this board asking if they have a chance to get in to such and such college. They then list SAT scores of 1400-1500, 3 varsity sports, numerous EC activities, GPA of 4.5, numerous AP classes, etc.</p>

<p>They then ask if they have a chance to get in to UNC, Michigan, UVA, Princeton, Harvardetc., and are told it is a stretch, and they may want to consider other schools as safeties. </p>

<p>I saw a few of these types of messages, so I went to a couple of the schools' web sites, and see that their average SAT's, etc, are much lower than the above example student.</p>

<p>Why are people telling these kids they have slim chances, when they are at or above the average for the school they are asking about?</p>

2

<p>Umm.. Harvard and Princeton are WAY different than the other schools you list in terms of selectivity.</p>

3

<p>But you get my drift, don't you? The example student I listed is Ivy League "average" material, and is being told they might not even get into Michigan, UVA, UNC.</p>

4

<p>I don't remember reading any post that tells a kid with 1500, 4.5 gpa and great ECs that UNC,Michigan or UVA is a "stretch."</p>

<p>HYP accept about 10% of their applicants, and turn down half of those with perfect 'SATs, so they are a stretch for just about anyone. I think parents have seen many great applicants denied places at top schools abd they just want kids to have reasonable back ups. The first three schools on your list would be reasonable back ups for in-state applicants with those stats.</p>

5

<p>look at the "college list" thread on page 4.</p>

6

<p>I didn't mean to start an argument, but some of the posts have really discouraged my son. He is top 5% in his class, 2100 on new SAT, 1400 old SAT, 4.3 gpa, varsity golf 4 years, not much else.</p>

<p>He gets Ivy League mail, WUStL, etc. We live in Virginia and he is trying ED to UVA, but after seeing some of the posts on here, is pretty discouraged that he will be accepted. I asked him his backup, and he said he was pretty sure Va Tech will accept him. He was considering applying to Vanderbilt, Princeton, WUStL, but is probably not going to because of what he has seen on here. His exact quote was, "I probably shouldn't even try, these kids are way better than I am, and they are being told it's a stretch."</p>

<p>His GPA, class rank, and SAT's are about average for almost any of the most prestigious schools from what I have seen in the US New guide, and on the school web sites.</p>

7

<p>Numbers aren't everything and your son should not be discouraged, especially as an instate applicant to UVa. The point about some of the "chances" posts is that having scores and test grade that are about average for very competitive schools often is not enough for applicants from overrepresented states, regions or ethnic groups, or those without special hooks. That is, for example, what is fine for someone from an isolated farm community in North Dakota or from a generally poor urban high school (geographical and possibly socioeconomic diversity, or ethnic diversity) will not be fine for a middle-class kid of European or in some cases Asian descent from an affluent high school in suburban New York, Connecticut, New Jersey, or NoVa, or similar places, because there are so many applicants fitting that profile all trying to get into the same schools. And schools want students to represent a more diverse set of backgrounds, as well as varied talents that will contribute to the school community.</p>

8

<p>Ok.....let us begin. Your son is applying from VA. You don't mention suburb or metro area but there are many competetive HS is VA. Your son clearly has accomoplishments, but without some indication of the quality and recognition of his HS hard for folks here to evaluate. Many, many qualified applicants come out of VA, from schools with great college counseling departments. Then you have to factor in connected parents. I mean who will they take your son or the son of a high public official? That kinda thing. I am sure your son is a wonderful guy, plays great golf and has recommendations to die for. Highly selective schools put together [a class]. The class can be whatever they wish it to be. It WILL have geographic, economic, cultural, artistic, development,academic, private, public, home.......lots of diversity factors. </p>

<p>Your opinion about what "stretch" is may be the issue here. Perfectly qualified candidates to highly selective schools are turned down for many factors......that in the eyes of many folks make the schools a stretch for every candidate.</p>

9

<p>That's the kind of replies I was looking for. You guys are explaining the reason why the "average student" is just that. It sounds like the average accepted student doesn't really exist, it's just an mathematical average of all accepted students.</p>

10

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<p>First of all, if your son believes that you shouldn't apply to a dream school because it's a stretch, you need to straighten him out right away. That's an incredibly crummy reason not to apply to a school that you would love to attend if you got in. MOST of the kids at Princeton applied even though it was a stretch.</p>

<p>Second of all, when you're dealing with college admissions predictions on an anonymous web site, keep in mind that:</p>

<ol>
<li>Not everyone here is who/what they claim to be.</li>
<li>Of those who are who/what they claim to be, many are college kids or parents who've gone through the admissions process once or twice, not admissions officers or other experts with experience across a wide range of scenarios.</li>
<li>Even the CC posters who are highly knowledgeable are giving their best estimate of a student's chances, not communicating divine truth. This is especially true on an internet board where posters cannot meet the student, read the letters of rec, etc. It's smart to treat even the wisest CC predictions as the educated guesses they are.</li>
</ol>

11

<p>What needs to be understood is that at top schools, an unhooked candidate can't have average stats. They need to be at about the 75%. The average is brought way down by athletes, URMs, development candidates, prodigies and legacies in some cases. That leaves the unhooked candidates to bring up the average.</p>

12

<p>This is all true! Some folks bring up the numbers.</p>

13

<p>"I didn't mean to start an argument, but some of the posts have really discouraged my son. He is top 5% in his class, 2100 on new SAT, 1400 old SAT, 4.3 gpa, varsity golf 4 years, not much else.</p>

<p>He gets Ivy League mail, WUStL, etc. We live in Virginia and he is trying ED to UVA, but after seeing some of the posts on here, is pretty discouraged that he will be accepted. I asked him his backup, and he said he was pretty sure Va Tech will accept him. He was considering applying to Vanderbilt, Princeton, WUStL, but is probably not going to because of what he has seen on here. His exact quote was, "I probably shouldn't even try, these kids are way better than I am, and they are being told it's a stretch."</p>

<p>The "what are my chances" posts here are a waste of time. No one but adcoms can answer such questions, and they certainly aren't wasting their time offering chances advice to strangers.</p>

<p>Where College Confidential can be helpful is by going through back posts and seeing exactly who got accepted and rejected from the colleges your son is interested in. One will learn quickly that having exceptional stats does not guarantee admission to top colleges. One also learns that the students here who predict chances have no clue what they are talking about.</p>

<p>In addition, one does see that simply having stats in the average range for top colleges does not guarantee admission. That's why one should produce one's best application possible -- and have safety and match schools that one would gladly attend.</p>

<p>One of the best things that one can learn here is how to put together the best application possible -- highlighting fully one's ECs, demonstrating one's character and writing ability through essays, selecting teachers whose recommendations will stand out -- and giving those teachers info so that they can write recommendations that are not generic.</p>

<p>But making decisions by the chances threads is a waste of time.</p>

14

<p>..His exact quote was, "I probably shouldn't even try, these kids are way better than I am, and they are being told it's a stretch."..</p>

<p>Please do not let your son be discouraged. My son and daughter had very similar stats as your son, and from the sounds of it, some of the same schools in mind. S was accepted everywhere but MIT, (where he was a legacy) D was not accepted everywhere, waitlisted several places, but ended up with several excellent choices. Both are happy at Cornell and Vanderbilt. If he loves a school, then apply, because the only sure thing is that he WON'T get in if he doesn't apply.</p>

15

<p>To answer specifically about UNC: because of the requirement that 72% of the entering class be from the state of North Carolina, it is very hard for out of state students to gain admission. Part of the 18% allocated to non-residents is used up by athletes, a few internationals, and children of out of state alum including holders of undergraduate and graduate degrees. These applicants are given special consideration under University policies and are put in a separate admissions pool. They generally have lower standardized credentials than other out of state acceptees. </p>

<p>My son with somewhat lower SAT scores than your son was admitted for the entering class of 2003. Both my wife and I are out of state UNC alums, plus he had a number of the non- standardized characteristics that UNC is looking for as it made up its first year class. They told us they wanted a well rounded class; not necessarily well rounded individuals.</p>

16

<p>Thanks, guys. It's all good advice. I just wish my son was as into figuring it out as his dad is. I think I understand what living vicariously means now. Hopefully he will get ED at UVA, and that will be it. I won't have to worry about paying for that quite as much as Vanderbilt or GT out of state. We are lucky to be Va residents. </p>

<p>Slightly chasing rabbits here--There is a lot of dissension and grumbling in Va about the fact that W&M and UVA are both about 35-40% out of state, and that more slots should be given to in-state students. I think it's great the way it is (I went to W&M), because it helps strengthen the student body. We used to joke at W&M that the students were either from Northern Va or New Jersey.</p>

17

<p>I personally would be very surprised if your son is not accepted at UVA. However, if he is not, keep in mind based on my family's experience, Vanderbilt has great merit aid, and GT didn't (for us).</p>

18

<p>Please excuse the bad grammar.</p>

19

<p>Your son is a lock at UVA in state, he will get in on Academic index alone. I would be SHOCKED if he didn't.</p>

<p>In-state UVA, UMIch is very different than the Ivies as far as admittance.</p>

20

<p>If the state would give more money to UVA and CWM they could demand a higher number of slots for in-state students. Both schools need the out of state tuition to support their programs. Isn't it something like only 7% of UVA's budget comes from the state? There are penalities for being a low tax state and strangling your state schools is one of them.</p>