Please Help! Deciding between NU and University of Chicago

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<p>This depends on how you define “top contender” (or “powerhouse”). According to the NRC rankings, 14 out of 15 of its ranked graduate programs in the sciences and math are in the top 25, with an average rank of about 12th. This is out of thousands of institutions of higher learning. Very few other schools have that combination of breadth and depth. </p>

<p>Admittedly, as Sam Lee and others are correct to point out, these graduate programs are not consistently in the top 5 or top 10. But when you combine the broad strength of graduate programs with the quality of undergraduate instruction (as indicated by Ph.D. productivity, student:faculty ratio, faculty compensation, facilities, etc.), you do have, in my opinion, something very close to a “top contender” for undergraduate science and math education. This is also a school that has an unusually clear sense of its educational mission. If you’ve done your homework, by now I hope you know what I mean by that. </p>

<p>I do agree with Sam Lee and others on many points. There are other factors to weigh besides academics. These are both good, respected universities.</p>

<p>I would think each school would be best for a different kind of kid. For the pure intellectual, UChicago is probably better. For the more well-rounded types, NU.</p>

<p>bclinktonk,</p>

<p>I just want to point out “overall” graduate ranking got nothing to do with “perception” and is a complete joke. At least 2 or 3 schools should have been ranked lower than Northwestern had they not sent the wrong data (it’s been discussed recently in a few other threads; you can look them up).</p>

<p>The department rankings are the ones that are purely based on peer assessment (i.e. reputation among the academia). The average rank of Northwestern’s 8 departments is 15th. </p>

<p>Also, reputation among academia should really be field-specific. Its industrial engg/management sci and material science are top-5. It’s the birthplace of mat sci so it’s highly reputated in that field.</p>

<p>Why is this topic even worth debating? academically Uchicago is better than NU. There are other “important” topics at hand that need further suggestion…such as how badly BC is overrated.</p>

<p>Interestingly enough, Northwestern has a larger endowment than UChicago =-O</p>

<p>UChicago Booth vs. Northwestern Kellog! :smiley: GO</p>

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<p>Apparently, the 2 schools have nearly identical Endowments Per Student. Chicago’s is larger by just a few thousand dollars. Close enough that differences in how they are restricted and managed probably far outweigh the small differences in dollar value.</p>

<p>[List</a> of colleges and universities in the United States by endowment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._colleges_and_universities_by_endowment]List”>List of colleges and universities in the United States by endowment - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>Traditionally, Chicago has been a very well managed school. It differs from many other universities in that it is run by the faculty, not by administrators who generally have no academic responsibilities.</p>

<p>Re: post #64, for as much of a U of C booster as I am, I would be very reluctant to state flatly, “academically U Chicago is better than NU”. If you are ready for a broad liberal education in the arts and sciences (versus specific pre-professional training); if you can tolerate heavy reading loads, working from primary sources, and Socratic instruction in small classes where active participation is expected; then academically it is one of the best schools around. Personally, I think many bright students are not really ready for that kind of environment straight out of HS.</p>

<p>Endicott wrote: </p>

<h2>"For the pure intellectual, UChicago is probably better. For the more well-rounded types, NU. "</h2>

<p>This might be semantic nit-picking, but I don’t think so and thus this post – there needs to be a separation between what a person IS, and what a person’s interests are. By saying Chicago is better for “the pure intellectual”, most readers will immediately go to the stereotype of intellectual that precludes interest in things social and athletic – that the Chicago person is not also fit, athletically inclined, social, perhaps even an extrovert, perhaps even very good looking and popular. You see how the phrase ‘ipure intellectual’ when put in an absolute way (an “intellectual” vs. “intellectually curious”) can imply an absence of more social, physical, athletic capabilities? I think the term intellectual has evolved into a back handed pejorative.</p>

<p>anyway, I think the better phrasing is that Chicago is probably a better fit for the person more inclined toward doctoral work after undergrad.</p>

<p>To answer bclintonk’s question on top engineering schools, I applied to many but I was rejected ahaha. That’s how life works.</p>

<p>honestly the only reason that NU and Chicago get compared to one another is their geographical proximity. Otherwise, they aren’t any more of a pair than, say, Duke and Swarthmore.</p>

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<p>LOL - yeah, b/c your small sampling is so indicative - it in no way is any more reliable than the fact that I know a no. of people who turned down UC for NU.</p>

<p>so I think the Wikipedia page that lists Nobels by university affiliation has perhaps unintentionally omitted Northwestern. Based on a search that took about thirty seconds, I came across the articles below. If Myerson is added to the list and no other prize winners had an NU affiliation, it would come out to at least 9. Not too bad when you think UCLA has 10 on the Wikipedia article. Northwestern chemistry has really come in to its own in the last few years and it will not be a surprise if current research there or at Feinberg is recognized by the Nobel commitee in 20 or 30 years.</p>

<p>And obviously no offense to the U of C, which I believe is the most academic school in the country, but there is a lot of built-in, um, inflation, to the method it uses to count laureates:</p>

<p>[A</a> Nobel Prize for Creativity - Los Angeles Times](<a href=“http://articles.latimes.com/2005/oct/10/science/sci-nobelinflate10]A”>A Nobel Prize for Creativity)</p>

<p>Renowned physicists Hans Bethe and Werner Heisenberg and economics guru Paul A. Samuelson are all counted among Chicago’s Nobel brethren.</p>

<p>Wait a minute.</p>

<p>Didn’t Bethe spend virtually his entire career at Cornell University? Isn’t Samuelson considered the heart and soul of MIT economics? Did Heisenberg even spend more than a few months in Chicago?</p>

<p>“I think the University of Chicago counts everyone who ever walked through there,” said Herbert Kroemer, a UC Santa Barbara professor who shared the Nobel Prize for physics in 2000.</p>

<p>Counting Nobel Prizes is the ultimate academic sport. It is a no-holds-barred exercise in selective memory and fuzzy math.</p>

<p>Universities that normally pride themselves on academic virtues and scholastic precision can find themselves grasping for any plausible thread of affiliation with those anointed by Stockholm.</p>

<p>[Chemistry</a> 1998](<a href=“http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1998/]Chemistry”>http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1998/)</p>

<p>[News</a> On Campus](<a href=“http://www.northwestern.edu/magazine/northwestern/janfeb99/cnewsjf99.htm]News”>News On Campus)</p>

<p>Chemistry Professor Wins Nobel
John Pople unlocks the theoretical properties of molecules. </p>

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<p>Northwestern professor John A. Pople, a pioneer in the theoretical study of the properties of molecules, won the 1998 Nobel Prize in chemistry in October.
The British-born Pople, a Board of Trustees Professor who has been in the chemistry department since 1986, went out of his way to praise others, calling himself "a container for the work of my predecessors over the last 50 years.</p>

<p>“I consider this a great honor not only for myself, but for all the students who have worked with me over the years,” he said. “I’ve been blessed with superb colleagues and students, many of whom are in positions of eminence themselves. This is for them as well.”</p>

<p>Pople’s Nobel was the eighth for Northwestern faculty or alumni. He shared the honor - and half the $978,000 award - with Walter Kohn, professor of physics at the University of California, Santa Barbara, whose research is similar to Pople’s but is more focused on the properties of solid materials, such as metals.</p>

<p>“This is a great honor for John and Northwestern,” said provost Lawrence B. Dumas. “We’ve known for many years that his work was worthy of this recognition. We have an outstanding chemistry department, and this reaffirms the importance of John’s pioneering research in computational chemistry.”</p>

<p>Pople was rewarded, in the words of the Nobel Prize Committee, “for developing computational methods making possible the theoretical study of molecules, their properties and how they act together in chemical reactions. These methods are based on the fundamental laws of quantum mechanics.”</p>

<p>well you seem to be interested in engineering? (or is that computer science)
if it’s engineering, choose Northwestern, UChicago is NOT the place to go because it doesn’t have engineering :)</p>

<p>^ Unless you think a good general education (including a good education in science and mathematics) is good preparation for an engineering career, and you like Chicago’s approach.</p>

<p>As for the Nobel count, yes, the little man in the back room who counts Chicago’s numbers does seem to have a hand on the scales. However, even if you count only graduates, or only faculty at the time of the award, or (I’m assuming here) only people who had been faculty for N years prior to the award, it’s still a respectable number. Many very distinguished, seminal thinkers not only have taught at Chicago, they have left their imprint on the place. Maybe that’s true of NU too, I really can’t say. I’ve read a little (on this board) about one of the leading lights at their journalism school and was very impressed.</p>

<p>cmburns14,</p>

<p>Thanks. It’s interesting that Northwestern doesn’t list them anywhere on its website while Chicago oversells.</p>

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tk,
I don’t see how you can tell anything about its undergrad instruction without going there. Please check this out: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/696653-bad-chemistry.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/696653-bad-chemistry.html&lt;/a&gt;
I don’t get the rest of the above quote. It just seems like a circular reasoning to justify what you said earlier:

If you average the USN rankings, the average for Chicago’s science/math departments is 12th. The average for Northwestern’s engineering departments is 14th. I don’t see how it makes sense to call one a “powerhouse” and then totally dismiss the other. They are not really that different. By the way, NRC was published in 1995 and it used 10-yr (?) data before 1995. So you are taking about some really old data out there. I wouldn’t let anyone to just coast its past reputation that easily if I were you. I hope you can stop using it when there are already 2009 rankings out there. As the USN rankings show, Chicago has slipped in chemistry and biology relative to other schools since the NRC rankings came out 14 years ago. Give credits to others that have moved up.</p>

<p>Hey everyone, thanks for all the input. I’ve been busy with some other things, so I haven’t had time to post. I visited Northwestern and I felt that the campus there was too greek based, and less intellectual than I wanted, so I finally decided that I would attend the University of Chicago. Also, I don’t quite want to set myself into one specific field yet, so I felt that UC offered a better liberal education; I really liked their humanities and social science classes.</p>

<p>Thanks again for the input!</p>

<p>good choice. as hard as it was i turned down Murphy Scholars at Northwestern as well. hopefully we won’t regret our decisions, lol :)</p>

<p>I grew up in Chicago and attended the Lab School and UChicago. Through my many years in the city, I’ve met and worked with a bunch of NU students and they’ve uniformly struck me as a bunch of bland, pre-professional suburbanites who have nice teeth and dress in pastel sweaters. Seriously, NU has zero personality and even less emphasis on academics.</p>

<p>If you want to go to a slightly grown-up version of New Trier High School, then Northwestern is perfect for you.</p>

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<p>Zero personality and even less academic emphasis… so you mean a negative emphasis on academics? Do you mean to say Northwestern, sure not Harvard or Yale, but still one of the nation’s top research universities, discourages its students from being academic? Northwestern is undoubtedly a preprofessional school; it’s an institution that, by and large, educates students who intend to go beyond the university setting upon graduation. But whoever said professionalism and academics were mutually exclusive? MDs need to understand the life sciences just as well as, if not even better, than any biologist or chemist, engineers need to understand applied physics just as well as any physicist, lawyers need to understand the ethics and political theory that go into law just as well as any political scientist, even business analysts need to understand the market and financial theories just as well as an economist to be successful. Professionalism, by nature, requires applicable intellect. tk89, you are, at most, in your twenties, I’m sure; despite your “many” years in the city (admittedly this made me laugh a little), there are still far more Chicagoans out there who have lived far more many years than yourself that trust and take pride in Northwestern as one of the best academic institutions that represent Chicago and the Midwest, the University of Chicago, likewise. I’m sure everyone enjoys your enthusiasm for U of C, but there’s no reason to be so blatantly disrespectful to another school to showcase your pride for your alma mater. Don’t be an embarrassment for your fellow students at U of C. I hope that, by the time you’re done there, you’ll learn to be a little open and respectful.</p>

<p>Edit -</p>

<p>Also no need to look down on New Trier High School either. Rather it’s been my impression that U of C Lab School graduates like yourself often like to look down on public schools for whatever reason, but rest assured, there are plenty of brilliant and unique kids at public schools who aren’t as conceited as the kids who look down on them.</p>

<p>Ugh, lipstick on a pig. </p>

<p>NU is one of the most overrated schools in the country and this PR campaign by its various alumni boggles my mind. Take one walk through the Evanston campus and you’ll realize that Aristotle plays a lonely third fiddle to Abercrombie and Fitch and Big Ten football.</p>

<p>I’m sorry, but with all due respect to the Boilermakers, NU, at least at the undergrad level, is essentially an upscale Purdue University. It’s a vocational school that happens to have amassed an outsized endowment. Trying to paint it as a world class academic institution makes my joints ache.</p>