Please Help! Intl Applicant: Duke Robertson vs Stanford/Wharton vs Oxford

Colleges and Universities A-Z Duke University
1

<p>Hey guys,</p>

<p>As the title suggests, I'm an international applicant from Victoria, Australia, looking to study overseas but not sure where to go! Currently, I have been accepted via SCEA to study at Stanford, and at Oxford University (Economics and Management). I am also a finalist for the Duke Robertson Scholarship, and am awaiting a regular decision result from UPenn's Wharton School. With only a couple of days between Robertson acceptances and decisions, I was hoping to get some advice now about the best route to take if I am fortunate enough to be successful. I know this is a blessed position to be in, and please be assured that I am by no means complaining! I just want to make the right decision!</p>

<p>Personal Goals</p>

<p>Currently, I see myself pursuing a career in consulting and am aiming to join one of the top consulting firms. As such, I obviously want my college of choice to aid me, or at the very least not hinder me, in pursuing that ambition. It is notable that, I will probably want to work for at least 1 year after college, in the country where I studied and then, either remain there permanently or return to work in Australia.</p>

<p>I also want to undertake postgraduate study either through the Rhodes Scholarship to Oxford (if i'm atrociously lucky enough to be selected), or with an MBA at the top business schools of the US.</p>

<p>Traits </p>

<p>I am of Indian heritage, but was born and raised in Australia.</p>

<p>As an individual, I am quite academically passionate and would relish opportunities to conduct research, particularly in areas of economics, finance and management, which are my key academic interests. Implicit in that, I guess, is that I am someone who enjoys close interaction and access to faculty members.</p>

<p>I am also quite community-service oriented and I wish to have opportunities for strong social leadership as part of my college experience. That said, I am also quite entrepreneurial and so I want to be part of a community of like-minded and like-motivated individuals.</p>

<p>I am a passionate sports supporter! I just really enjoy sports atmospheres and the ability of sports to unify student bodies!</p>

<p>I am hoping for a relatively strong social scene, too, but not a pressured, alcohol culture. (That said, I also want to be able to achieve a studious environment when I need it!! My Australian college friends tell me they really struggle to do work...)</p>

<p>Other Personal Info</p>

<p>My mum has a lot of family in the United States, particularly centred around San Jose, California and Princeton, New Jersey, so family trips to the US are fairly reliable. However, if I went to oxford, there would be about $5000 dollars worth of flights that wouldn't otherwise occur.</p>

<p>My parents earn about A$500,000 per year in pre-tax wages. They want me to make the decision independent of finances, but I think it's probably still a valid consideration, particularly as they are already paying A$40,000 per year to send my brother to high-school in Australia. I would be paying full fees at Stanford (approx. US$66k all expenses), Wharton (approx. US$60k all expenses) and Oxford (approx. A$46,000 all expenses - NOTE: 3 years rather than 4).</p>

2

<p>I would go with Duke. Winning the Robertson (if you do) is a far greater accomplishment than merely being admitted to Stanford or Harvard. Employers know this to be true, and this is the reason why they covet students who have won prestigious honors in the past.
Duke is one of the best feeders to consulting firms and as a Robertson, you are bound to attract additional attention. I don’t think you should even debate attending a school as good as Duke for free. That $200,000 can come in handy for grad school or for paying off a mortgage!
Also, if you’re the kind of person who likes to be an active member of the community and enjoys watching sports, you’ll fit right in on Duke’s campus.
Good luck with your decision!
Choose wisely</p>

3

<p>All other things being equal, in your shoes, I’d take Oxford for the global portability and name-brand of the degree, to save a year’s tuition, and because it’s likely to be easier for you to work in the UK post-graduation than in the US (one of the criteria you laid out), particularly if you think there’s a good chance that you’d end up in the US for your MBA in any event. </p>

<p>The Robertson is a wild card. Not only would it cut your cost of attendance drastically, it also would open up a very valuable social/professional network that is likely to open a lot of doors in the business community. Plus, basketball!</p>

4

<p>I’d go with Duke too. I happen to babysit for an extremely wealthy/successful investment banker who has worked all over the country and worked on wall street for 15 years. (He now does private equity out here in california) and thats exactly what I want to get into and hes given me advice on how. He said if you go to Duke/harvard/wharton they really dont distinguish because at that point they know all the kids are smart. He said it depends on gpa and if you want to get into investment banking etc. And if youre going to major in business, do accounting, not finance. Because finance is considered a “soft” degree and only do finance if youre 100% going to get an MBA, which you should do anyways. He said hes not saying to be an accountant, but just to major in that if you want to break into wallstreet
He also said another in on wall street would be to double major in either accounting or finance along with statistics because then employers know you have the background to analyze all the financial models etc. However its extremely difficult to do both so be careful
So yeah I dont know if this helped at all, it was just some advice I thought I’d pass along.</p>

5

<p>Oxford. The epitome of work really really hard and play (whether at sport, other interests or partying) really hard. Everybody has their own room, and there are more libraries than you can possibly use, and even the clubs, etc. work around the essay schedule. Sports can be as much or as little of your life as you would like (watching or participating), though some colleges are keener than others.</p>

<p>At Oxford you will have fewer “contact hours” than in the US, but you the ones that you do have are largely 1-on-1 or 1-on-2- fantastic interaction with people who love your subject as much as you do, and are world leaders in it to boot. And as my post on your other post notes, the consultancies just <em>love</em> Oxford students (esp E&M, PPE & H&P).</p>

6

<p>Oxford, Wharton, Duke in that order.</p>

7

<p>I would choose Oxford in a heartbeat but if finances are an issue, you can’t go wrong with Duke as it is better recruited by management consulting firms than any other school in the world besides Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Penn, Cambridge, and Oxford. Unfortunately, you were admitted to three schools who are all a bit better than Duke in this regard hehe. ;)</p>

8

<p>Oxford would actually be my last choice. The English education system is in shambles, Oxford’s endowment is smaller than Duke’s let alone Stanford’s. Believe it or not, Oxford is also the least selective school that you have been admitted to (I’m not saying that selectivity determines quality, but the way people are fawning over Oxford, you’d think that the acceptance rate would be lower than 20%). Furthermore, Europe as a whole is doing very poorly economically, and I’m sure that staying in US will prove beneficial in the long run. Going to Oxford will also limit the variety of classes you can take. In the US, you can broaden your horizons and take classes in numerous disciplines. What if you take an introduction to genetics class and decide you want to become a doctor? That is very possible in the US, but at Oxford you will never get to explore unchartered territory and unravel your hidden talents.
Call me crazy, but Oxford would be the first school that I would cut from my list if I were you.</p>

9

<p>Stanford, Wharton, Oxford, Duke. This thread is obviously biased towards Duke haha.</p>

10

<p>There are many reasons to argue for or against Oxford, but Gailforce a number of your points are either irrelevant or reflect a misunderstanding of the system. Neither selectivity nor endowments are relevant comparison points, as the systems are so different, nor is the general state of the economy on either side of the Atlantic a reason to choose one over the other (esp for undergrad, as the OP makes it clear that grad school will follow). IMO, doing undergrad on one side and postgrad on the other side of the Atlantic gives the OP the best of both worlds/</p>

<p>Your point about depth versus breadth, however is germane. There is no question that the US system is better for people who are not sure what they would like to study, or for all-rounders. The OP indicates that he is passionate about his subject, but you are right that he should consider whether he is sure that is all that he wants to study. </p>

<p>I have daughters in colleges on both sides of the Atlantic, which suits each of them. The one at Oxford loves that she gets to study her subject in depth, right from the beginning, and without having to take other subjects or introductory level courses. The level of depth in year 1 is notably higher for her than it is for her friends in US Ivies, simply because the course effectively starts in year 2 (also why it is only 3 years long). That is not a slam on the Ivies- as you noted, in the first year of university in the US, students typically take a range of courses, in part to discern what their interests are. But for students who genuinely love their subject- the ones who are involved with it both in school and out- being able to go right into advanced level courses, with one-on-one tutorials with world leaders in their field, Oxford is a dream come true.</p>

<p>On the other hand, if you are a multi-disciplinary person (like one of my daughters), or aren’t sure what you want to study (like another of mine), the US is a much happier choice.</p>

11

<p>Yeah, as collegemom stated, how Oxford structures its curriculum is MUCH different than US institutions. Not necessarily better or worse, just different. I wouldn’t hesitate to choose Oxford (or any of your choices really), but I think the differing structures of the education system has to be a MAJOR criteria. If you prefer the US system, then don’t choose Oxford. The other choices are all top notch. If you prefer the British system, then choose Oxford. If you’re indifferent, then you need to research it more. :wink: But, seriously, I think the difference in prestige/connections between Oxford and the others pales into comparison to the differences in the curriculum structure. (Although visa/work issues in the UK vs. US could also be a legitimate factor to consider). </p>

<p>Can’t really go wrong with your choices - if you do well at any of them, you’ll be fine at acquiring a top consulting job as they’re all target schools. Wharton has more individuals at these firms than perhaps Duke, but that’s most likely because more people are interested in that field (and Wharton is a bit more competitive to get into, so it has already self-selected individuals). I would expect the same person to have about the same preparedness level/opportunity to lock down a top consulting gig at any of these schools. I would personally probably choose Stanford, but that’s just my personal opinion and I don’t think it’s objectively “better” than your other options.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

12

<p>Like bluedog said, I think when you are at that level, school choice probably accounts for a small portion of the differences in outcome. Personal decisions and characteristics and actions probably make more difference in the end and it sounds like that won’t be a problem for the OP. </p>

<p>But I would address Gailforce regarding Oxford in that:</p>

<p>1) The endowment numbers that really matter (if at all) is the endowment of the individual colleges as the colleges play a large role in what your experiences at Oxford will be like. Given that the size of the colleges (and their endowments) vary greatly, on a capita basis, some colleges may have better endowment numbers compared with all but the richest US colleges. </p>

<p>2) Selectivity is also based on course of study and also college of study. Each college at Oxford has its strengths and each has certain allotments for space in different courses of study. Prestigious courses in strong colleges may be just as selective as many selective US universities. </p>

<p>But as collegemom pointed out above, these 2 points above are not the most important rather it’s the education model. In general, the English education model is narrower, deeper, and stresses small group learning in tutorial/supervision settings. And at Oxbridge, these are delivered via a college system that encourages mixing of students/fellows at all stages of their training from undergrad to grad to faculty. The US, on the other hand, is wider, more flexible, but also more impersonal in the beginning (and also longer).</p>

13

<p>Hey guys,</p>

<p>Thanks so much for all the replies! At 500 views and 0 replies, I had lost hope! </p>

<p>Some really great points have been made, to which I have more information:

  • Whilst I am most interested in a finance career at this time, I haven’t really been exposed to anything else. So, in that sense, the liberal arts education may better suit. However, I also feel intuitively that I am a business-oriented person who probably won’t stray from the economics/finance/entrepreneurial path.
  • At Oxford, my college has quite a small endowment, so I guess that means I won’t get the chance to do research/conduct summer activities unless I fund myself?
  • Selectivity at Oxford is, however, technically stronger with a sub 10% acceptance for E&M, and a 2% acceptance for internationals. But, by the same measure, I guess a robertson is sub 1%? I actually think that the overall oxford cohort is likely to be more academic, but the robertson community itself will probably on par with that whilst also being a little more dynamic in other areas?</p>

<p>In terms of the advantages of oxford in terms of one-on-one interaction with professors etc., are those features of an education that CAN be replicated at Duke? I.e. if i was really keen on the academic, would I have the opportunity as a Robertson to access professors/faculty? Also, does anyone know about hte Robertson summer activities beyond the first year? I know they are community service oriented (which is awesome), but I also want for my summers to contribute to my career? I know a guy a few years ago went to Vietnam to work with venture capitalists, which was like a perfect combination of community service and private-sector skills development. Do those kind of programs still exist?</p>

14

<p>I’m not a Robertson but I’m a Duke student so hopefully my input on your latest questions are helpful. I came to Duke knowing that I wanted to do something in finance, so while I’m taking econ and math courses for my economics major, I’m still taking other courses in other fields (writing, history, etc). I never would have thought that my paper my freshman year for the general writing class would have gotten published by scientific journals, but it did. If I didn’t have to take a writing class, I wouldn’t have taken one, but because I had to, I did and loved it and happened to have my paper published, which is huge and looks great on a business resume as well. I also took a lot of interesting classes that weren’t econ related that made me explore due to the curriculum, and I really liked a lot of these classes. Sure, there was one that I kind of hated (science) but I had really good experiences in a lot of my general Trinity-Req classes. Also, with the set-up, you can pick up a minor or certificate in another field that you find interesting, from something like Markets and Management to a science or even math/stats. </p>

<p>I don’t know enough about your college’s endowment at Oxford, but I’m assuming they have some grants for summer activities, maybe ask the school or on this website in international or an english version of this site.</p>

<p>I’m not a Robertson so I don’t know, but I’d be shocked if they had summer experiences in so to prevent one from getting an internship…they aren’t stupid and know that summers (mostly after soph/junior year) are used for internships, but thats another thing you can ask the program or ask a Robertson.</p>

<p>Also, small classes and one on one interaction can be accomplished. Freshman year first semester my biggest class size was 28 people. First years are required to take a seminar and writing class (max of 15 kids each) and I think Duke has the best class size average among Top 10 Schools in the US. Teachers have office hours which are great for 1:1 help and are great to arrange meetings at different times if your schedule won’t allow certain times.</p>

<p>Ask if you have any more questions</p>

15

<p>Let me address your point about interaction with professors. At Oxford, you will have 1-2 hours of one on one time with each of your professors per week. At Duke, you could theoretically have more time than that if you take advantage of office hours. Several professors have an open door policy and would be more than happy to spend as much time as it takes to address all your concerns in person. Even those that do not have an open door policy (they are in the minority) have designated office hours, and will be happy to meet with you at short notice (just shoot them an email).
I am sure that Robertson scholars have some sort of preferential access to faculty, however, since I am not one myself, I don’t know too much about this program. </p>

<p>As far as selectivity is concerned, be under no illusions. Getting the Robertson is orders of magnitude more difficult than being admitted to Oxford as an international. I’m not saying that this should play any role in your decision making process, I am merely dispelling any confusion so that the record is clear for future reference.</p>

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<p>The Robertson website lays out each of the summer experiences at this link: [Robertson</a> Scholars: Summer Enrichment](<a href=“http://www.robertsonscholars.org/index.php?type=static&source=477]Robertson”>http://www.robertsonscholars.org/index.php?type=static&source=477)</p>

<p>Summer Enrichment</p>

<p>The three-part summer program is an integral component of a Robertson Scholar’s experience. Each summer is a transformative opportunity for scholars to seek their place in an increasingly diverse and complex world. Through a combination of domestic and international experiences, students work with program staff to design and implement comprehensive and challenging summer experiences that will complement their academic pursuits, allow them to explore and act on individual passions and inform their future careers. To learn more about our summers, read our students’ summer blogs from New Orleans, Mississippi, Tanzania, Peru and New York.
First Summer: Community Building</p>

<p>The first summer, after freshman year, is the final component of a Robertson Scholar’s first year. It builds upon the camaraderie and collaboration established during the first year by placing students in an environment where they can live and learn from each other as they engage in community-service placements in one of our four partner communities: Atlanta, Georgia; Cleveland, Mississippi; New Orleans, Louisiana; and Whitesburg, Kentucky.</p>

<p>Scholars live together and work individually on an eight-week project that furthers a social mission relevant to the partner community. Program- and student-organized events help scholars understand the unique historical, social, and cultural history of each location. We have built a network of contacts and mentors in each of our partner communities to help students get acclimated, provide strong leadership examples, and advise students on how best to immerse themselves in and contribute to their host communities.
Second Summer: Exploration</p>

<p>The second summer, after sophomore year, allows students to take the next step towards fulfilling their potential, choosing between programs with varying degrees of collective and independent experiences. For a minimum of eight weeks, scholars can stretch boundaries via cultural immersion with one of our existing International Summer Programs (in Argentina, Vietnam, or South Africa); participate in the design and implementation of a small group project with community leaders ranging from sites as varied as Durham and Bangladesh; or conceive and implement an individual project whose goal is to explore a passion in a way they have not been able to do previously. During this summer, students improve their skills in a second language, experience an unfamiliar culture, or learn more about their role as global citizens. What ties these experiences together if the exploratory nature that will allow Robertson Scholars to go where their intellectual curiosity leads them, challenge themselves in unfamiliar environments, and learn about the myriad issues our world confronts.
Third Summer: Synthesis</p>

<p>In their third summer, after junior year, Robertson Scholars have the chance to act on a passion by designing and implementing a project in a location of their choosing that is the culmination of three years of experience they have accrued via their previous summer experiences, the other components of the Robertson Scholars Program, and their own extracurricular activities and coursework. This summer prepares students to launch their postgraduate life by providing them with the chance to act on a self-identified passion in a deliberate and meaningful way, taking concrete steps to realize a personal, professional, or academic goal. With help from the Assistant Director of Summer Enrichment and a faculty mentor, students are afforded a high degree of independence and are in charge of creating a budget, arranging accommodations, and identifying resources for the research, internship, or service project they plan to undertake.</p>

<p>Third-summer projects are as varied and diverse as the scholars themselves. Robertson Scholars have written short stories in Ireland supplemented by coursework and independent reading; conducted physics research at the world’s largest particle accelerator in Switzerland; and helped launch an all-girls boarding school in Kenya.</p>

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<p>hello Up the Saints…never heard back…did you end up deciding which scholarship to take?</p>

18

<p>I <em>love</em> these comments on Oxbridge selectivity. It is, perhaps, the fault of Oxford and Cambridge as they’re simply too dumb to put some background info on their admission sites. </p>

<p>Yes, Oxford admits around 20% of the applicants, what is indeed higher than Duke’s 14.0%.But you can’t apply to both Oxford and Cambridge in the same year, which basically cuts the applicant pool to half. Moreover, one can only apply to a maximum of 5 universities in the Uk, compared with theoretically unlimited applications un the US. Self-selectivity is therefore incredibly strong. </p>

<p>As regards endowment, Oxford’s was £3,36 billion in 2011, that’s about $ 5.1.billion ( and two years ago it was $6,6 due the exchange rates) Duke’s endowment was $5.6 billion in 2012 + it’s the “primary beneficiary of the independent $2.7 billion 'Duke endowment”. The difference is, Oxford is one of the biggest landowners in the UK; it’s land, which is not part of it’s endowment worth billions of pounds, and it serves as a steady source of income. Not to mention that money is, despite being very important, not everything. CalTech’s endowment is merely $1.5 billion, yet it’s one of the very best universities in the world. Emory and Notre-Dame, despite boosting endowments around $5 billion, nowhere in the top 100 when it comes to world rankings - their research is, allowing some exaggeration, crap. ( And these are not LAC/research university hybrids like Georgetown, what would explain their realively low rankings.)</p>

<p>Be as it may, taking the external factors into consideration, Oxford is way more selective than Duke. Simply put, the best minds in the country (and, to a certain extent, the EU – 30% of the undergrad population is from outside of Britain, and for Eu citizens its a bargain compared to the Ivy League) could choose between two universities, that is, Oxford and Cambridge. In the US, the best minds could choose between Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford and MIT, not to mention CalTech, Chicago or Columbia.</p>

<p>All in all, Duke is an excellent university, but it’s hardly on pair with Oxford.</p>

19

<p>Let’s do some fact checking, shall we? </p>

<p>Duke’s acceptance rate last year was 11% and it is almost guaranteed to be lower this year around.
Duke’s endowment is bigger than Oxford’s (you don’t dispute that) and Duke has fewer students than Oxford. This means that Duke’s endowment per student far exceeds that of Oxford.
So, thus far, we have established two things about Duke and Oxford. Duke is better endowed and more selective.
Now on to the question of Oxford’s unspecified land holdings worth “billions of pounds”. It is funny that you should bring this up, because Duke possesses the largest campus in the entire US. 8610 acres to be precise. How much do you think that is worth? I don’t know, but it’s probably not chump change. </p>

<p>I <em>love</em> how you use Caltech to make the claim that endowments are not important to a university’s success. Caltech has a $1.7 billion and 2,000 students. Oxford has a $5.2 billion endowment and 20,000 students. Do the math. Why do you think Brown isn’t as well regarded as its ivy peers? (Hint: It has something to do with having a smaller endowment)</p>

<p>Oxford’s history and prestige are unrivaled. However, empirical data shows that the American schools have better resources and consequently have the ability to better educate their students. The future lies with universities like Duke, the past indisputably belongs to Oxford and Cambridge. It is up to the student to decide what he/she wants to place greater emphasis on.</p>

20

<p>

Endowment and selectivity may just be two of the worst criteria to base a decision on. Especially since the difference in endowment between Duke and Oxford is minor enough for it to be a non-issue. And @GAILFORCE, you failed to elaborate (acceptance rate percentage aside) on how Duke is any more selective than Oxford. I highly doubt that is the case. See GeraldM’s points.</p>

<p>

While endowment does matter, the endowment per student at Columbia for instance, is ten times lower than at Princeton, but the difference in opportunities, and quality of education is marginal. The difference at Oxford and Duke is even lower.</p>

<p>

I think that you are overestimating endowments affect on quality of education. Furthermore, from what I’ve heard from most people, Oxford (and Cambridge) are wonderful at educating undergraduates, comparable to the likes of Princeton, Yale and UChicago (all known for their incredible undergraduate education, although Duke is arguably on par with them).</p>

<p>

Once again, how do you reach this conclusion? My crystal ball must be faulty…</p>