Please Help Me Choose! Northwestern vs. Rice vs. Claremont McKenna vs. Vanderbilt

College Search & Selection
1

Hi All,

I have just been admitted to seven schools… I am still waiting on the Ivy league. My top choices right now are Northwestern, Rice, Claremont McKenna, and Vanderbilt, all with good-to-great aid. I was also admitted to Emory, Occidental (with a huge merit scholarship), and George Washington, who offered me a terrible aid package. I have eliminated these three, unless y’all have reason to believe I shouldn’t.

I understand that all of these institutions are great, and are fairly uniformly strong in my fields of interest, such as economics. I also know that regional differences influence their relative strengths: Rice seems to be strongest in the business & economics of medical technology, while Claremont McKenna seems to have a pipeline to Silicon Valley business positions.

Academically, I know that these are all good schools. In my fields of interest, it seems like the ranking would be:

  1. Claremont McKenna
  2. Northwestern
  3. Vanderbilt
  4. Rice

but I am open to other suggestions.

Social and arts factors also are important to me. I am highly social, and not vehemently opposed to or in favor of the frat scene present at a school like Vanderbilt. I am a little more “alternative” than my view of the standard economics/business major (interested in independent music, pop culture, fairly nerdy/intellectual). I am also an accomplished/enthusiastic guitarist, singer, saxophone player, and producer, and I would prefer a school with the presence of arts (which CMC seems to lack). The ranking in the social/cultural category I believe would be:

  1. Northwestern
  2. Vanderbilt
  3. Claremont McKenna
  4. Rice

Grad school preparation and career opportunities/connections are important as well. CMC and Northwestern again seem to be the best in this category, but again, I’m able to be convinced otherwise.

I have thought this through extensively, and I would appreciate some help. Could everyone please explain the similarities and differences between the schools, and which would be the best fit for me?

Also, if I get into Columbia, Yale, or Harvard on Tuesday, should these institutions still be in serious contention?

Thanks!

2

I would go to Northwestern if I were you. It seems like a better fit. And I might even consider ranking northwestern above CMC academically. If you got into harvard, yale, or columbia I personally would choose any of them over the schools you listed above. If you plan on going into business, youre gonna have better networking opportunities at big-name schools. Another reason why I dont think CMC is necessarily the best choice.

3

CMC for sure. The presence of the other Claremont Colleges provides what you think is missing there (though you’re probably overlooking the many talented people in music and the other arts at CMC, as well as alumni connections to the LA performing/arts scene). CMC’s economics department is arguably the best undergraduate department in the nation (only Williams might be competition), and having received my Ph.D. from Northwestern I can tell you that you NU will not provide the same kind of attention and stimulation that CMC will. (I was VP at CMC for four years - my creds). CMC’s connections on Wall Street are superb, as are its Silicon Valley links. There’s a reason why CMC students are the happiest in the nation, and it’s not just the weather.

4

LW1998, do not expect many posts that could help you decide. The reasons are simple: almost all will be biased by the preferences of the responders, and many will simply lack any knowledge. Why would a senior with admissions in the hand pay any attention to the speculation of a HS junior who is scrambling to finish summer applications?

Here’s one reality. You did spend much time determining the schools you like. Apply the same principles to your decision. If you can visit, follow your heart but weigh the positives against the negatives. Your choices are among schools that are easy to like and love. Northwestern is a great school that flies just below the “Ivy” radar. And so are Rice and Vanderbilt. Some have, as you said, a presence of Greek Life, and that is a huge difference with CMC. Anyone familiar with my posts on fraternities will know that such an element represents a HUGE point in favor of CMC, as it demonstrates that working hard and partying hard does NOT need the nefarious and divisive presence of frats on any campus. So, so much for unbiased posts!

If you can visit, I think it will help. In my case, I had made my mind within 30 minutes of parking the car in Claremont. I had no problems whatsoever in dropping the choices that might have appeared more prestigious at that time when acceptances were three times as high as today, and well before CMC became the most selective LAC in the country. The reputation and rankings had nothing to do with my decision. It was the school spirit and the countless smiles flashed in those early minutes. I can only assure you that this was hardly universal at other schools.

As far as location, you will have to weigh the benefit of a school that can be as cozy as its 1,000 students permit and as large as a 6,000 students consortium allows. Analyze the value of an education that will be (mostly) void of glorified peers masquerading as TAs and the close-knit relations that develop with most of the resident professors, and the very active administrators. Large schools simply cannot offer something similar, and this regardless of how much lipstick is coloring the pig!

As far as the arts, you will indeed live in a sleepy community that is one hour away from LA and its scene. It ain’t Nashville but I do not know what Houston or Chicago might offer more than LA. On an anecdotal basis, my “business” educated former roommate did parlay his econ degree into a highly successful producer and songwriter with several hits. He made his parents proud but followed his heart. And music it was!

In conclusion, none of us can say what school would fit you the best. But you could do that easily as soon as you define what you plan to accomplish in the next four years.

PS To be clear, CollegeBuff does know what he is talking about!

5

@CollegeBuff‌

Northwestern is a 4-time national champion in College Fed Challenge; only Harvard matches that. Its graduate econ department is ranked #7. Outside of these facts, I don’t know anything out there that would let us rank undergrad department in econ.

You took probably less than 20 courses as a PhD candidate at Northwestern (assuming you are even telling the truth); I don’t see how you can generalize the “attention and stimulation”. Students at MMSS and Kellogg cert programs seem to get plenty of attention and stimulation, according to their testimony on program websites.

Totally second xiggi, a man of wisdom.

6

My response was for someone seeking an undergraduate program, not graduate studies. As a graduate student at NU - admittedly many years ago - I TAed for distinguished professors as they taught undergraduates, and I know their students received no personal attention from them. The distinguished professors at CMC teach only undergraduates, except for the 20 students in the graduate program at the Robert Day school of economics and finance. Though I am now retired, I spent my 43-year career in college education and college management consulting, and I know many institutions well. More, perhaps, than Mr. Teng.

7

Well, CollegeBuff, I was a TA at Northwestern years ago as well. And I must say, while I certainly did not find all of Northwestern’s practices to my liking, I have to disagree with your assessment re: faculty attention for undergraduates. This will vary somewhat from department to department, and on a micro- level, between individual faculty members. I think it is misleading to suggest that undergraduates at NU cannot obtain sufficient access to full faculty. Overall, my belief is that Northwestern can provide rigorous and excellent training at the undergraduate level in many areas. It is a major research institution, and it would be unfair to expect NU to function as a LAC.

I do not have direct experience with CMC, but I was admitted to Pomona many years ago. While Alexandre makes a valid point on bias, my belief is that Northwestern – barring future admissions from other schools – will provide more opportunities and resources for a career in economics. Thus I would suggest it over CMC in this case, unless the OP prefers a LAC experience. I don’t necessarily believe the quality of undergraduate economics education will be significantly different at either; however, the opportunity to access more prominent and cutting-edge research in the discipline would favor NU in this case. The poster who mentions Kellogg also confirms that the NU resources weigh in its favor.

8

Thank you for the responses, everyone. I’m more interested theoretically in a university setting, preferably midsize (as all of these universities, with the exception of CMC, are). I just talked with a friend who goes to CMC, and she confirmed my suspicions about it: she said that the pre-professionalism is rampant, and people are inordinately concerned about landing resumé-worthy internships. Although I would eventually like to get a career working in either the Startup community or as a lawyer, I’d like a wide range of studies and interests that CMC doesn’t appear to be able to offer. The student-to-faculty ratio is actually 9:1, which is worse than Rice’s 6:1, Vanderbilt’s 8:1, and Northwestern’s 7:1. Additionally, I was accepted into the MMSS (Mathematical Methods in the Social Sciences) program at Northwestern, which is a huge plus, as I’ve heard that the economics education offered through that program is of comparable quality to the University of Chicago. My question is: can job/grad school placement at CMC, Rice and Vanderbilt compare to that of the MMSS program?

9

Ultimately, you should decide on the basis of the place you feel most comfortable - that’s where you’ll do your best work. I know I’m biased in favor of liberal arts colleges and have been since I was 15, but I know lots of bright well-educated people who did not have the opportunity to study in that setting.

Having said that, I’d question any assertion that CMC doesn’t have a “wide range of studies.” I spent 24 years working within the Claremont Colleges, and I found an astonishing range of both curricular and extracurricular stimulation to be available - far more than any stand-alone liberal arts college, and more than many universities.

Something to consider about student-faculty ratios: they mean different things at universities and colleges. At a research university, top scholars may work with only a few graduate students, whereas at a college top scholars work with undergraduates. When I TAed for Sam Schoenbaum at NU (he’s the distinguished Shakespearean scholar who left NU for Oxford), only his Ph.D. seminars had fewer than 100 students.

BTW, CMC has scored near the top of the list for its career/placement center; check it out.

10

Again, OP, follow your heart and follow the conclusions of your analysis. Only YOU can measure where you will feel comfortable. Take the time to balance your objectives with the … catalog. From your posts, I am not certain you have defined what YOU want clearly. No offense as very few at your age are able to do it adequately.

Fwiw, the comment about pre-professionalism is a bit odd considering the RU choices you listed, but I remember you did not care for Wharton too much. And Wharton happens to CMC closest cousin in curriculum. I guess that you have started to add the positives and negatives.

Having experienced the LAC and the RU model, I have no hesitation to call the faculty cum TAs a cynical joke played on the students who place high demands on the quality of the instruction. While it works in certain disciplines and at the training wheels levels, it does not work well in the areas you listed. To keep it simple, I did not mind the grading of a paint by the number Econ test, but I surely did not care for the analysis of a fellow graduate student in research papers. And, no matter how romantic the presentation is, research university survive on a model that minimize the direct involvement of their faculty in teaching undergraduates and maximize the use of TAs who might be talented but are neither qualified nor trained at a very high level.

You are blessed with great choices. Look at them objectively and go for it without regrets.

PS Not that it makes ANY difference, but 1246 students with a faculty of 152 is a 8/1 ratio. :slight_smile:

11

CollegeBuff,

If what you said is true - that undergrads get no attention from professors at Northwestern, how do you explain the high number of undergrads from Northwestern winning external scholarships like Fulbright, Goldwater, etc?

You said only PhD seminars had less than 100 students. Other than my intro science/Econ, every other class I took was less than 100!

OP,

The irony here is MMSS was specifically created for undergrads in the 1970s. Apparently, some professors at Northwestern cared enough to design it. One of them was Dale Mortensen, a Nobel winner who just passed away last year. To this day, there’s still no other program like it. Originally, it was meant to equip students quantitative skills for PhD programs. But it turns out many top firms highly value those skills too.

12

There are subtle differences in economics departments, such as math intensity and preprofessional versus pre-PhD emphasis. If that matters to you, compare the courses and curricula for economics at the various schools.