The problem is…all great schools, but…no engineering…at any of them. If that’s in the mix, her list has to narrow down to a little over 400 schools.
I’d suggest looking at ABET to start sussing out which ones they are and build from there. Choose Mechanical Engineering, since it’s the broadest. Most schools that have ME have other majors too. The notable exception is Harvey Mudd. They offer General Engineering only.
https://amspub.abet.org/aps/name-search?searchType=institution
Wow, I read some more and see why you and others suggest Univ of Rochester as a good fit for her. Rochester itself seems like a decent sized city, but I think she picked up on my bias of it being too cold and isolated from back when I lived in NYC. I’ll ask her to look into it more as I know she only gave it a cursory look the first time. Maybe a California girl can survive there? Thank you!
Ah yes, good point, outcomes might be the same in that ROI sense, but it’s the “process” getting there, the experiences and opportunities during her college years that we’re focused on now (but not ignoring potential future costs for professional school, etc). So the “worth it” question is a tough one that we are sorting through, although it’s hard for me to articulate.
I think before she started seriously looking at colleges, it would’ve been easier to limit them to the cost of a UC (that’s where I’m getting the $40k), so any private would’ve had to come with a merit scholarship – because UC’s have always been reliable institutions providing great educational opportunities for our family.
But we’re learning that getting in to most UC’s is so unpredictable these days, especially as she feels compelled to gain admission in a highly competitive major that she’s not even sure she wants to do (for now engineering is just one of many interests, not yet a goal), with little freedom to try other disciplines. We still love the UC’s/CSU’s but have become somewhat disenchanted and are willing to consider and pay full price for a private school if we think it will be a much better experience for her than a UC/CSU. So if a school checks off most of her important boxes and she doesn’t get into a UC/CSU where we think she can have as great an experience, we won’t limit it to $40k.
Thank you again for all your feedback. I always appreciate the reality check on what we define as affordable.
Clark in Worcester was suggested, what about WPI Worcester Polytech? They are one of the somewhat limited amount of schools that offer a specific degree in Aerospace Engineering. Mid size a little over 4k students and part of https://www.heccma.org/ association of colleges.
That is a great point that I didn’t consider, thank you.
Ah, that’s what I figured, thank you.
Yes, that’s part of her struggle as she figures out her UC and SLO apps. For each school, she’s looking at what major she might want to pursue and, we assume, will probably need to apply directly to the most competitive major so she doesn’t foreclose a future opportunity. And from what you described above, it sounds like she should start with engineering if that is a real interest, if not as the actual major, at least start taking the foundational courses so she doesn’t start off by falling behind. And because she’d be applying in probably the most competitive majors, her chances of acceptance will be lower, for a major she might not even want in the end. Wow, my head is spinning.
Wow that’s amazing! Can I ask why he didn’t choose it?
Yes, I’m now urging her to give another look at Rochester. Hadn’t considered the others and will add to her research list. Again, really appreciate all your suggestions – thank you!
I had a classmate who was in civil engineering but right from the beginning she decided to take 5 years to graduate because the wanted to take a lot of other classes in college too. I remember her taking mythology, piano, and Shakespeare, just because she wanted to.
Of course, college was a lot cheaper in those days so the extra year was a little easier to handle.
Wow, that’s great how much overlap our D’s have!
We didn’t get a guided tour, but we also really liked the campus (guess it’s good we didn’t get into any bathrooms!) and the surrounding town. And yeah it seems with SLO and UC’s, it’s much easier to switch out of an impacted major than in, so my D feels compelled to apply to the hardest major she’s interested in. Which would be okay if that was the major of her dreams, rather just one of many cool areas she wants to learn more about.
Yes, I’m understanding the theme we have with engineering, easier to get out than in. Glad to hear Pomona and HMC had good energy when you visited, it was somewhat depressing empty over the summer, although we actually liked the HMC buildings. Maybe not the dorms though. My D would’ve loved the clocks!
Oh no, we were really hopeful Case Western would be “it”. Can I ask what took it off the list? We’ve never been to Ohio.
Yeah, it is hard to find that mid-size school that does it all. I’ll tell my D to check out Boulder and Seattle. I’ve been telling her these large schools like UC’s might not feel as big once she’s in her specific college or program within the university. I do like the idea of having her in a state closer to home too.
Thanks so much I look forward to learning more from you!
Wow, those are generous awards and that housing is ridiculous. No wonder you’re seeing so many California kids there!
That is pretty reassuring, although being in California it does shock me that so many universities across the country were not allowed to have vaccine or even mask mandates in some places.
I guess the other question we’d have about Arizona is how hot it gets. since I was so excited reading about the schools I almost forgot my daughter has an aversion to very hot weather.
Had not thought of all these OOS public schools, so will have her check them out. We do hope a CA school is the best for her, but if nothing else it’s very eye-opening seeing what these other schools offer. Thanks so much and congrats to your daughter!
Thank you! Learning so much about navigating our CA schools from you and gumbymom!
The WUE sounds pretty great, I’d never even heard of it before, probably because we do have great schools here. Not sure which she’ll end up applying to, but she’ll check out the schools others have recommended here, even the other state schools.
As for MIT – she just gets very starry eyed about the school, the students, classes, even their website gets her excited. She knows it’s out of her league but that’s one that she really feels she has to apply to.
That does sounds like the best of both worlds, I didn’t realize it was so integrated with Columbia. I did encourage D to look at Scripps since it sounds like students similarly have co-ed classes with the rest of the Claremont campuses, which to me sounded like she wouldn’t be in a women’s college as much as a women’s dorm but taking co-ed classes, etc. She didn’t buy it, but I’ll share the Barnard suggestion and see if she’ll at least look into it. Thank you!
They exist, but many are religious (the Jesuits, USD, Notre Dame) or are in the south (Tulane) or both (SMU), which OP said they aren’t interested in. Most of the tech schools in the 5k-10k size range are really engineering focused and while they offer liberal arts classes, they usually don’t offer enough to make a good solid major. That was fine for my daughter because if she decided engineering wasn’t for her, she was going to switch to something like chemistry or math and not English or a foreign language. It sounds like OP’s daughter wants to be able to switch to any major.
Wow, what a great experience! I will share your D’s experience with my own liberal atheist NorCal D! Thank you!
I will take a little different tack on the OP’s list. The factors I am focused on:
Doesn’t know for certain whether she wants to do a STEM major. This should be the MOST important factor in picking the school. Everyone knows of someone that got to their small “dream” school and realized they didn’t like their major and were stuck. She needs a school that is strong across academic disciplines.
Wants a progressive vibe. I don’t want to have a political argument with anyone, but I would advise against going to most southeastern schools.
Size of school. The OP said “a larger one that can feel smaller, or smaller one that can feel larger”. The first part of that quote can happen at most state schools. Young people will find their niche socially and academically pretty easily at most state schools. Going from small to large (like through a consortium) is a lot of work for the student.
Test Optional - It is hard to handicap how schools will handle TO candidates over the long term. I would recommend finding a place to tell them that her test was cancelled three times and remove even the possibility that an AO thinks she is hiding a bad score.
Some thoughts on specific schools:
MIT and UChicago - these are very different schools from most and from each other. These two schools should probably not be on the same “Top 5” list of schools for an applicant. Unless your D really wants the unique MIT or UChicago experience, I would take both off the list. Also, MIT is probably not accepting a TO candidate.
I like Case Western a lot for your D. Yes, Cleveland is not pretty, but the few people I know of that sent one of their children to CW give it excellent reviews.
The UCal admissions process is probably worth its own message board given how opaque it is. The schools themselves are excellent and I think would all be a good fit for your D.
I would drop Carnegie Mellon off the list. It is hard to move between majors at that school.
Boston University - good school, really fun location, but very expensive and not exceptional in STEM.
U of Rochester is a really good option for your D, as others have pointed out. Not easy to get into, but definitely a more “nerdy” environment and demanding academically.
Brown has a bit of a reputation as the “easiest” Ivy academically, so it seems like every 4.0 kid in the country that wants to take it easy in college applies to it. If your D is looking for a rigorous academic environment, this may not be it. There is also a huge advantage to applying ED, so if this is not your D’s “dream school”, then it is going to be really hard to get in.
Some more match or low reach options that are not on the list:
U of Wisconsin - Very good school across academic disciplines, and and a very good fit for your D culturally. Winters in Wisconsin are long and cold, but I think your D would like this school. I strongly recommend checking it out.
Utah - culturally a unique school, but strong in STEM and offers a wide range of academic options.
U of Michigan - I have never met someone who went to Michigan that did not love the school. Strong across academic programs. A little pricey for out of state.
U of Washington - plenty of rain here. Good school, progressive culturally.
One of the things about the good state schools is that there are a gamut of students. If your D wants to play D&D and just “nerd-out”, she will have no problem finding people into that at any of the better state schools. If she wants a demanding academic environment, she will definitely find that in the more challenging majors at the states. There are also more goof offs and slackers at the state schools, but those kids are often a lot of fun to hang out with.
Having attended or visited a couple schools on the list, I have a couple thoughts:
CMU now has a policy of having each class in it’s STEM majors be 50/50 male/female and has an acceptance rate for it’s engineering college of around 15%. Since far more men self-select and apply for STEM majors what this means is that the acceptance rate for men might drop to around 10% and the acceptance rate for women might be 30%. You might want to look at their common data set. The take away, is that because of this policy, a female might have a better chance of being accepted into a STEM program at CMU than at an institution that is not as highly ranked.
You mentioned that your daughter might be interested in Graphic Design, and CMU’s programs in both Graphic Design and Industrial Design are among the best in the country. If she is interested in the humanities, CMU offers those programs, but that is not the school’s strength. Their business, public policy, and fine arts programs are all excellent.
Another plus is that CMU is awash with money and has terrific facilities. Since I attended, they doubled the size of their main science building, added an entire quad for their business school, replaced the student union, and increased the size of there computer center. They had just razed Scaife Hall and were starting the founding for a new building in its place. I think CMU is the fourth largest recipient of federal grants for research (they are probably developing Skynet as we speak). And if your daughter likes rain, I think Pittsburgh only averaged around 30 days of sunshine a year when I was there. It sure seemed like it, at least.
Now the bad news… CMU has a reputation for being stingy with financial aid. They also have a reputation for being a more stressful environment than some other schools. Back in the 1980s when I attended, it was a sink-or-swim environment in the engineering, and juried fine arts programs, and it seemed like they were trying to weed out the bottom 20% of each class. This was not unusual for engineering and professional programs back then, and I think CMU - along with other schools - foster a more collaborative and less stressful environment today. Everything is relative.
We were surprisingly impressed by Case Western Reserve. While not as highly ranked as other schools on your daughter’s list, the school appears to have a flexible, supportive culture. Students do not need to lock into a major until Sophomore year, and the school encourages students to take classes, or even minor/double major, in areas outside their chosen field. Our tour guide was a MechE major with a minor in Econ. The campus was nice, and it is located in the cultural center of Cleveland (Holy Oxymorons, Batman!), with the city’s symphony, art museum and modern art museum on the edge of campus.
I think your daughter will find a progressive, inclusive, diverse culture at most universities in the US today. Sure, some schools like UofM Ann Arbor or Berkeley are known for progressive leanings, but unless she decides to go to Brigham Young or Liberty University she will be welcomed with open arms.
Another minus for CMU for an undecided student is that it is divided into divisions (engineering, fine arts, humanities and social science, information systems and public policy, science, computer science, business), and changing major across divisions can be difficult (particularly if trying to go into the School of Computer Science).
Rice seems like a good fit for her. Rice is in Houston, but the area around campus is very liberal/progressive. The major cities in the state tend to be “blue” while the rural areas are “red.” Rice gets high ratings for being LGBTQ friendly and happy students. Students at Rice can explore STEM and STEAM and can major in anything they want except music and architecture (those require audition/portfolio). Students are not required to declare a major until junior year. Many students double major and change majors freely. The weather is very hot until mid September but then is very nice through April.
It’s very hot in Phoenix/Tempe from May to September, but it’s actually very nice from October to April. So, the heat is only a bit of a problem at the very beginning of the school year. Also, the weather is quite dry so you don’t feel sweaty (but you need to make sure you carry a flask of water with you and drink frequently).
Tucson is a bit cooler because it is higher. Freezing temperatures are uncommon there but nonetheless possible at night in the winter.
This is specifically what drove my son’s search. Beyond the intangibles like location, support for outdoor recreation, “typical college experience,” etc., he wanted a school that started in major, with small classes, that didn’t widely use TAs. Not every one he applied to hit every mark, but the schools he narrowed to did.
We set a hard cap of $50k/year net after all merit. We were full pay, and capable of paying full price anywhere. We just didn’t see the value in overpaying, no matter the name.
This is almost certainly going to result in a rejection to the upper UCs and Cal Poly if she picks CS. I would not recommend that route. It doesn’t sound like CS is really in the mix anyway.
Most have mechanisms to prevent backdooring into harder admit majors. I’d look at the info on major change like @ucbalumnus posted for Cal Poly at every school she’s interested in.
For Cal Poly specifically, I would suggest she apply to General Engineering. It is not the most competitive admit, but it the one major where they intentionally lower the movement barriers. For example, moving from any engineering major but GE to ME requires a 2.75. That is lowered to 2.0 for GEs. Roughly half of the GE admits change majors. They choose it because they are undecided.
Another interesting CP option is Liberal Arts Engineering. It’s one of the few that a student cannot start in as a first year. They have to transfer in. It’s not ABET accredited, but rather designed for students that want to apply principles of engineering to other fields of work.
It just didn’t make his final 3: WPI, Utah, and Cal Poly, all with similar net prices to Case after merit ($40K for WPI and CP and $25k for Utah). It wasn’t bad, just not up to what he saw in the others for what he wanted. He ended up at Cal Poly from out of state, after agonizing really between that and WPI, largely based on location. He finished with a BS and thesis based MS in ME in ‘19.
This forum is littered with students seeking transfer advise every year because they get stars in their eyes and ignore their first principles on fit. There is a student right now on their second Ivy, looking for advice on yet another.
If she wants a broad choice of majors, which it appears she does, I would be leery of MIT, and probably any tech school.
As I mentioned previously, although CP is known for engineering, the CENG only accounts for 25% of enrollment.