Please help Undecided STEM (and Undecided about STEM) Girl’s college list

College Search & Selection
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I find the responses in this thread super interesting. I mean that sincerely. They make me wonder how much the considerations differ between men and women.

For me, the abortion issue is a different version of a student needing to know the campus (including the community in which it sits) is a safe an accepting place for people like them. It isn’t about planning to have an abortion. Similar to LGBTQ or BIPOC groups’ concerns. There is a wide spectrum of how much a person is concerned with those considerations even within any group, but for many it is essential. It can be essential for people outside of the group, too.

My son is currently in the middle of applying. I am not a very politically motivated person, and geography never entered into the equation for me. Now, Texas has communicated loud and clear its stances on a wide array of issues that impact all people in Texas (voting rights, abortion, infrastructure issues and covid) - I would feel like a huge bait and switch occurred had my child committed to a Texas school in the past two years. I would be curious to know how students attending Texas schools feel about it. I went from pushing Vandy and Rice on a kid I thought was being too rigid about his political/college choices, to taking entire states completely off the table. There are plenty of other schools to choose from. It’s a shame, but as much as I love certain schools, their geographical and political context is now a dominant consideration for me.

The conversation about MIT v UChicago is also very interesting. Kiddo and I independently came up with UChicago and MIT in his “top 5”. The one aspect that makes me wonder about fit for him is the common debate about whether MIT is collaborative or competitive. People really seem to disagree on that one. But I think there are a subset of kids that are both collaborative and competitive. For those kids in particular, especially non-engineering stem kids who are strong writers and like a core curriculum, UChicago and MIT both are very appealing. And not for nothing, neither is known for being politically strident. They are similarly sized, have graduate programs, and are in cities. Neither require you to commit to a major when applying. I love hearing the subjective, differing experiences, though. They give great context.

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MIT is competitive for students who themselves are competitive (i.e. they like to consciously compare themselves to others). Most students, however, only care about how themselves perform, not how others perform, because there are plenty of opportunities for everyone. Besides, there’s always someone who is better than you at something/anything, so constant comparison would likely make your life miserable. Why bother?

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Thank you for sharing this number. I did not know it was that high.

I am posting the link to the study here for reference:

“If the 2014 age-specific abortion rates prevail, 24% of women aged 15 to 44 years in that year will have an abortion by age 45 years.”

Also from same source:

“When examined by age group, women aged 20 to 24 years accounted for the largest share of abortions and also had the highest abortion rate: 28.0 per 1000”

Population Group Abortion Rates and Lifetime Incidence of Abortion: United States, 2008–2014 | AJPH | Vol. 107 Issue 12 (aphapublications.org)

It should be noted that the American Journal of Public Health is a peer-reviewed journal.

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Well, you’re not attending. Are those dominant considerations for the student?

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Yes. I was pushing him to be more open-minded.

But even if they weren’t, now I would need him to make the case that the benefits of the school (a) can’t be found elsewhere and (b) override my concerns for him and his future friends.

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Thank you for your response. (Although I think you might have me confused with the actual OP; OP’s D and mine have very similar circumstances.)

I understand there are bigots everywhere. In CO, I would never patronize that bakery, and in a way it’s good that he declared his homophobic stance publicly, since now people know what kind of person he is. Same with states and their laws. CO’s governor is an openly gay man, and I do think says something about the people in the state who voted him in.

I think CateCAParent makes a salient point. I’ll piggyback on it and add that if you are not the one with a target on your back, then you will “never experience any harm” and you’re safe, and you can make such a statement truly believing it because it is true for you. Not everyone has that protection.

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My son had no interest in schools in the south. I thought Rice would have been a good fit, but he flatly said there was no way he was going to Texas for college. I don’t think it’s that atypical to have geographic preferences for or against regions based on perceptions of in-group and out-group alignments, political or otherwise.

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All. Great points and again I wasn’t trying to be insensitive. And we can all as parents and students choose where we spend as I acknowledged.

In the case of being denied services bcuz one is lgbtq I was just pointing out it doesn’t mean it would happen…. And frankly if it were to happen you wouldn’t have chosen those medical professional anyway, such as a counselor.

Lots of great points. I’ll admit I’m blown away by the abortion percentage although it is up to age 45, not 22.

And I was just trying to say there are good people in bad states and bad people in good ones.

Thx for the discussion and perspectives.

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If you were a woman you would not be. I think every woman I know knows someone who has had an abortion if she herself has not.

It would definitely take Texas off the table for my D22, but she was never going to Texas anyway.

The Southeast is not monolithic and there are some super LGBTQ friendly schools here. We live in NC and my D22 is LGBTQ :rainbow_flag:. She has taken California off her list — been there didn’t really like it — but she is definitely interested in several schools in the Southeast and will likely stay in this region. She is interested in Creative Writing so her schools might not be relevant but she is interested in Warren Wilson, Hollins, and we are going to go look at Agnes Scott in November. It is super LGBTQ friendly and super diverse (only about 35% white). Agnes Scott is also good in both STEm and Creative Writing.

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Discussion of SB8 (or other state laws) is fine within the context of choosing a college, but let’s not get led astray with tangents, please.

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Wow, I go away for a day and what discussions we have! These are very important topics to D and our family, so I appreciate the debate.

Yes, and my D is in more than one of those outrgroups, and “target” is a real feeling – it’s her perception, doesn’t have to be a reality or even on the radar to others, but it’s a serious concern moving around our country.

If Elder had become governor we would’ve mourned, then worked to get him out. But despite a vocal minority following, he would not have had the legislature or rest of the state to push through his agenda

We wouldn’t be able to move to a safer state, less so due to work constraints, than because there are fewer and fewer places where our family feels safe. Even if she is admitted, we don’t have the luxury of picking any best university – for some families it’s finances that make it a no, for us it’s our family’s demographics.

The harm may not be perceivable to others, but it is very real to the person who’s larger community has said you are not valued.

Yes, there are hateful people everywhere, even here on the Left Coast. But knowing that your friends, school, community, state and the laws they must enforce are there for you and will have your back, that is huge. This, to me, is why people need to speak up when they see someone else acting bigoted – not necessarily to change that person’s mind, but to let the targeted person know they are not alone. That is powerful and most appreciated.

Yes, and rape/incest victims, etc. Besides the women’s stats, I’d hope the men involved with these women would also care about this topic.

No apologies needed (I’m the OP :slight_smile: ). I’m glad we’re having this conversation, I wish the rest of the country could discuss these important topics so respectfully and thoughtfully.

Yes, I think for some of the states (not all conservative-leaning states), I do feel like I need to put my money where my mouth is and not add my tuition dollars into the coffers of a place that has become so hostile to so many groups. We might take a few great schools off the table in the process, but that’s how important it is to us.

Yes, this. My D and our family care about the environment as a whole, including the larger community (ie, state), even if she didn’t feel she was the one being targeted. Rice for example sounds like an amazing school and I think she would love it if she got in, but just can’t get over the messages she gets from the rest of the state.

Us too. And we are lucky to live in California and are able to find and afford a good school she’ll love either here or in another place where she’ll feel safe.

Thank you everyone for these important conversations, which I think are very on topic for our family. I’m still trying to read through the rest of the thread and really appreciate all the thoughtful discussion.

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ucbalumnus, Right you are. I knew several people who changed from more selective and difficult majors to lesser majors, like EE to CivE or Architecture to English at CMU. I knew of no one who was admitted into a less selective major who was able to change to a more competitive one. Apply to the most selective major you think you might want.

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From the same paper linked above ( https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2017.304042 ), table 2 lists cumulative first abortion rates by age group. From that table, it looks like 13.28% of women have had abortions up to age 24 (perhaps an age more relevant to traditional age college students).

Of course, even someone who has no intention of choosing abortion (e.g. a gay man who is pro-life) may still want to avoid some of the implications of the Texas law that could cost $10,000 for inadvertently or unknowingly aiding someone in getting an abortion, so may want to avoid going to college there.

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Returning to the actual question. My d is very similar to yours, including uncertainty about whether to have engineering schools on the list, no desire for super intense super competitive schools, no frat domination, inclusive and diverse environment, and we also aren’t considering any schools in red states for all the reasons you say. We are east coast however and her specific interest is astronomy. Considering Tufts, Amherst, Wesleyan, UPenn, UCLA, Berkeley, UColorado at Boulder, U Michigan, possibly MIT, Yale/Harvard as the usual moonshots, Cornell, Haverford.

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Sorry to suck you into this thread, just wanted to give you props! I hope you’ve started a trend with your categories. :slight_smile:

And thanks for trying to get more attainable schools onto her list. Agree that vibe seems to be found mostly in the LAC’s. Those schools she took off her list:

Reed: Really seem like her kind of people and atmosphere, and she has a few friends there who are happy. But school size was way too small and didn’t seem very racially diverse.

Lewis & Clark: Seems like a nice atmosphere but again school size too small and didn’t seem racially diverse. Also didn’t seem as strong for STEM?, and not interested in a 3-2 engineering program.

Rochester: We thought it was too remote/cold, but I am having her take a second look.

Brandeis: I thought would be a great fit and she thought so too until she and my husband did a self-guided tour over the summer. She just wasn’t into it, felt school was too isolated and far from Boston as well as the local town, which she said didn’t seem like there was much to do in? She thought the campus was generally nice but felt a bit rundown and might get depressing especially in the winter. I wonder if it would’ve left a better impression if during school year with energy of lots of students? While I don’t mind cutting her list, I actually didn’t want her to cut that one yet, so appreciate hearing more from you or others on how it might fit (or not).

Clark: Sounds like a really nice atmosphere. I’ll pass along the suggestion, although I suspect the size will be too small.

Great point. She needs to take some time and decide how important an engineering option is to her, especially since as you said earlier she’d need to start with that coursework right away. If it’s still a potential major, your ABET search (especially the ME tip) sounds like a great way to narrow the options.

Thank you both!

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Ooh hadn’t looked into WPI, will have her check it out. I think a concern may be as we have with other technical schools – if they will have strong non-STEM programs if she decides to go that route instead?

And good point about Aerospace Engineering (and the other majors on her current interest list) – if they definitely need to stay on as options for her, that will help to cut schools that don’t offer them. Thank you!

Edi: I see now you said WPI is part of a consortium. Do you know how easy it is to take courses and possibly majors through another college in the consortium? Thank you!

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Cross Registration | Course Registration | Registrar | Offices | WPI

I’ll let others answer on the ease - but likely not very - if they’re not adjacent as these are college kids.

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@chrisntine Given yours and her really strong preference to stay in-state, I’d drop a few OOS reach/match colleges, CMU, Brown, Tufts, BU for starters. However four of your five most enthusiastic colleges are all out of state, are you saying that you’d prefer Case to Stanford if you got into both assuming similar costs? Stanford is the college checks all the boxes your kid wants, but it’s the toughest to get into, even over Yale, because you’re in CA. Even devotees of other colleges on this thread are not going to say their college has a better Aerospace Engr and Computer Science and Sociology than Stanford. UCLA and Berkeley are also strong across the board but they’re bigger than your D wants. If your kid is starry eyed at MIT, maybe that’s her dream college, so I’d apply there EA or Stanford SCEA, those along with the UCs/SLO and a couple of CSUs for in-state. Then add a few OOS in states where your D is comfortable attending. I didn’t attend any college in CA so don’t really have any rooting interest, though I have a soft spot for bay area colleges, where I live.

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Yes, we’re anticipating it may take more than 4 years, but we will encourage her to take community college or other classes for pure hobby/interest. Hopefully it won’t take the full 4 years to figure out if an interest is a hobby vs. major. :woman_facepalming:

Yes, she wants the ability to switch into a non-STEM major, that’s part of what makes her search more difficult. But hopefully that also helps make her list shorter. :slight_smile:

Thanks for your help!

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Thank you for your thoughtful analysis, it definitely focuses on some of her main priorities. Your points on Carnegie Mellon, Boston Univ and Brown are what I was thinking too and schools I thought shouldn’t be on her list.

I see there’s a robust discussion on MIT vs. UChicago so I’ll reply to that separately. :wink:

Will have her check out those other schools – living in California we never really considered other state schools, but I’m learning a lot here!

That’s actually a reason I want her to investigate the state schools with honors programs because while I think it would be good to find her tribe and get the amazing perks of those special programs, I’d rather not entirely segregate her from the rest of the students. I’d think the more demanding majors might be the better way to meet her nerd needs but still allow her to interact with the full student body.

Thank you so much!