<p>Just providing yall with multiple bad ways to measure something for which inadequate data is available.</p>
<p>Don’t like that one, I gave you two more that aren’t good either.</p>
<p>Thanks naval.<br>
First-off, gotta say that I’m surprised that “party” is a WSJ ranking catagory!!!<br>
Second and very nice surprise, D1s LAC has a better than average “mid-career” salary!
Interesting that grad rates for pell grantees, are not tracked. You’d think that the feds would want to keep better tack of how the schools manage their (our) investment. None of the Ivies (with all the available aid) enroll more than 20% pell students. Compare that to UC Berkeley at 27% pell. There does appear to be correlation between pell % and grad income for the ives. The high the pell% the lower the incomes. Perhaps other factors like career choice control for this … I don’t get using AA as a proxy SES. All it tells us is that blacks graduate at the same rate. Like duh. First generation american would be a closer proxy. If your a pell kid, Amherst looks like your best bet.</p>
<p>
Geez … maybe you are finding for which you are looking. Cornell grad here … my 10 closest friends from Cornell …</p>
<p>Me = middle management grunt … in year 25 of relationship
College GF #1 = middle management grunt … divorced … no second relationship
College GF #2 = Air Force Pilot (war vet) / Engineer … in 30 year relationship
Best friend = upper management grunt … in 25 relationship
Close friend = uber salesman … in 30 year relationship
Close friend #2 = doctor … in 35 year relationship
Close friend #3 = chef, restaurant owner … divorced, 2nd marriage about 20 years and going strong
Close friend #4 = in engineering managemnet … 30 year relationship
Close friend #5 = became a weatherman … no idea about long-term career or relationships</p>
<p>I must travel in the wrong circle of friends</p>
<p>Ok here I go… Gormetmom, That why I was looking for broader, more quantifiable stats, because I feel it’s unfair to base my assumptions on my limited circle of friends. I’m glad that you can pay two Ivy full fares. I’d even venture to predict that your off-spring would do well even if they chose a “second-rate” school. They only info I gather from your comment is that Ives do fine job of educating, already educated and advantaged kids. Every year I see braggadocios reports about how many well qualified applicants were turned way from ives, along side the astronomically high stats of accepted kids. Never have I seen a comparative report which factors SES, cohort, and career choice. Why aren’t the Ivies going into detail about grads? Neither do the state or party schools. The mid-tiers LACs are all over “outcome” reports. Why not the top-tiers?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Uh, that kind of proves the whole point here - the Obama children are upper income AA precisely because their parents <em>did</em> have elite educations and thus were able to get good jobs (leaving aside whether or not their father became POTUS, it’s still evident by any measure that they would have been upper income in the private sector). </p>
<p>But with you, barrons, I suspect this is going to turn political and nasty, which I hope wasn’t the intent.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yes, they do. So? Is that a bad thing?
(And can I clarify - by “Ivies” do you mean “that specific group of 8 schools,” or are you using the word Ivies as a proxy for top-tier schools?)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This may bum you out, but the more upper class a family is, the more their children have the <em>freedom</em> to pursue less lucrative careers, whether that’s nonprofit, the arts, a religious calling, working in international aid, etc. So that really doesn’t prove anything either way.</p>
<p>“Why aren’t the Ivies going into detail about grads? The mid-tiers LACs are all over “outcome” reports. Why not the top-tiers?”
Because they don’t have to disclose outcomes in order to attract gazzilions of applicants.
They are sitting pretty, while hundreds, nay thousands of smaller, less known colleges are struggling to attract students.</p>
<p>Ok let use our President and First Lady as an example. Self reported “average” student in high school. Rejected from Swathmore (and probably others). Admitted to Oxy (with a Finaid package I assume). After two years transfers to Columbia. I wonder if he reached to submit apps to any Ivies? The first lady, followed her brother to Princeton. I wonder, to what other schools did she apply?</p>
<p>What difference does it make? I know where you’re heading, and it’s likely not very pretty. But go ahead and pretend Michelle Obama had the same kinds of schools on her radar screen as your average upper middle class CC kid. </p>
<p>Anyway, if your thesis is what I suspect it is – “the Ivies take not so bright kids and polish them off for future success” – then I guess there’s your answer as to why they are worth it.</p>
<p>Wow–this thread has gotten off-topic.</p>
<p>Well well well… Reminded why never to look for info on CC.<br>
Why do you presume to “know where I’m heading” or that I posses some sort of over reaching hostile thesis? </p>
<p>Look back to original post #260, where I asked for stats about outcomes. That’s all I want to find–Quantifiable stats on outcomes. Sorry if offended y’all by suggesting that “earnings” is quantifiable data point. If you can suggest other hard data, then have at it.<br>
Trust me I don’t intend to pass judgement on anyone’s tours of europe or uber-achieving off-spring or well healed marriages, merely looking for outcome reports, so I don’t have to rely on my own tilted perceptions.</p>
<p>Obviously this type of request is some sort of insider’s hot-button. </p>
<p>Duces</p>
<p>Wow all this fuss over what is after all an an athletic conference:</p>
<p><a href=“http://ivyserver.princeton.edu/ivy/downloads/rulesummary/ivysummary.pdf[/url]”>http://ivyserver.princeton.edu/ivy/downloads/rulesummary/ivysummary.pdf</a></p>
<p>You’re making the assumption that those of us who value / are willing to pay for elite schools believe that these decisions will “pay out” financially in the end and that’s why we do it. You’re not hearing us – we KNOW that these are luxury goods (or in this case experiences), that have value to us that is not captured by “kid salary increase.”</p>
<p>I think there is great value in being surrounded by a high density of very smart people, which is easier to find at top tier colleges than at “lesser” schools. I’m willing to pay for that. You may not be. That’s cool.</p>
<p>From what I gather…the parents who know pay for their kids “Ivy education” know it is a luxury. They know it doesn’t necessarily pay off. They know they could’ve payed less and, essentialy, their child would have still succeeded in a “lesser” school…</p>
<p>Isn’t this the Apple vs PC debate. :D</p>
<p>I learned, and I’m being perfectly serious, that there can be great value in being surrounded by a high density of rich people (regardless of their intelligence - and I mean really rich people, not upper middle class ones.) In fact, the most important lessons I learned in college came as a result, and I am grateful for them.</p>
<p>" If you can suggest other hard data, then have at it. "
Here’s one well know study:
The Colleges Where PhD’s Get Their Start- PhD feeder schools
“The statistics cover the years 1997 to 2006 and come from the National Science Foundation and the federal government’s education database”
[The</a> Colleges Where PhD’s Get Their Start | The College Solution](<a href=“http://www.thecollegesolution.com/the-colleges-where-phds-get-their-start/]The”>The Colleges Where PhD's Get Their Start)</p>
<p>and another -from the same source:</p>
<p>“When the NSF looked at what schools were producing the most PhD’s, per 100 undergraduate degrees granted, only three public institutions made the list – University of California-Berkeley, William and Mary College and New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology”
“50 Top Schools for Science & Engineering PhDs”
<a href=“http://www.thecollegesolution.com/50-schools-that-produce-the-most-science-and-engineering-phds/[/url]”>http://www.thecollegesolution.com/50-schools-that-produce-the-most-science-and-engineering-phds/</a></p>
<p>
I wouldn’t assume that the state school would be less expensive than an ivy or other highly selective college. The thread at <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1556344-checkbook-org-article-does-net-price-calculator-experiments.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1556344-checkbook-org-article-does-net-price-calculator-experiments.html</a> has links to specific costs for different colleges in various regions of the country. The general pattern was the highly selective private school; such as Harvard, Stanford, and Penn; was least expensive for all but the maximum included $200k/year income group. And the group with a $100k/year income and little home equity had a net price of under $10k/year. I’d expect Harvard or Stanford to be a lower net cost than state flagship, for most persons in the United States.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Get real. Money can certainly be quantified, but keeping track of the earnings of the alumni of any given school would be a prohibitively large, difficult, and complicated task. Harvard, for example, has over 320,000 living alumni, including over 50,000 living in foreign countries - all of which are at many different stages in their careers. The logistical challenge of collecting and tracking all their incomes is just mind boggling. And that assumes that all these alumni will even want to share all this private income data with the school in the first place.</p>
<p>And it’s not just Harvard. Pretty much all colleges are in the same boat. The only schools that are in a position to accurately know the earnings of their grads are the military academies, and then it’s for only the first five years after graduation - the length of their required military commitment.</p>
<p>Moreover, if a grad from Elite U then goes on to medical, law or business school, does the “credit” for the resulting income go to the undergrad or grad school?</p>
<p>@Data And an iPhone can be cheaper than an Android/Windows phone. My comparison still stands.</p>