<p>It depends on field of study. if one is considering Medicine, Engineering, CS, then go to the cheapest place that you actually love and feel “at home”.<br>
Med. Schools do not care, they want to see very high college GPA (3.6+) no matter where you are from and what was your major, decent MCAT and friendly personality. Engineering firms and IT departments (where MOST engineers and CS end up, nope, most do NOT work for Bill Gates) hire locally unless applicant wants to relocate. Top kids will find amazing places, graduating from Budunk Unknown college with top grades (and most likely not spending a dime on their UG tuition because of Merit awards). I am familiar with these 3 fileds first hand, do not know much about others.</p>
<p>My d’s graduate Ivy program is much, much more difficult to get into than their undergraduate program. I don’t know the data from this or last year, but despite dozens of applicants, hadn’t accept a single student from an Ivy school in six years. For whatever reason, they thought they weren’t as qualified as those they accepted.</p>
<p>Of course, when she’s finished, she may be unemployed and unemployable. ;)</p>
<p>
This is hard to measure, since success in many fields does not necessarily equate to how much money you earn. Indeed, graduates of Ivies and similar schools may disproportionately choose certain careers that don’t pay that much–how “successful” is an Assistant Professor at a college?</p>
<p>^ For the sake of argument, one could use the same primary method of measurement used for admission–numbers. GPA and SAT/AP are gauges for admission. So why not use Money as a gauge for success? Both are quantifiable. </p>
<p>Do any long term studies exist?</p>
<p>Because money does not equal “success.”</p>
<p>^ then one could assume that GP/SAT/AP doesn’t equal “smarts”…? Other $$, what qualifiable data point would you suggest? </p>
<p>Again, I wonder if an IVY diploma v. state flagship diploma contains any long term relevance towards career success? I would be interesting in seeing results over spectrum of career catagories. Like arts/entertainment, medicine, education, law/government, engineering , business/finance…</p>
<p>I don’t think that one should attempt to define “success” for other people. I think this endless yapping about Ivies vs state flagships (as if all state flagships were created equal, or as if there are no other elite private schools than Ivies) is mind-numbing and stupid.</p>
<p>"^ then one could assume that GP/SAT/AP doesn’t equal “smarts”…? Other $$, what qualifiable data point would you suggest? "</p>
<p>Who ever said GPA/SAT was the only measure of smarts? One can have a 2400/4.0 and be unethical, greedy, annoying, boring and have zero people-smarts, which renders said person “not all that smart.”</p>
<p>“Again, I wonder if an IVY diploma v. state flagship diploma contains any long term relevance towards career success?”</p>
<p>If you don’t think it does, it probably won’t. Anyway, even though I send my kids to elite schools, it’s not motivated by thinking they’ll make more than if they went to our (good) state flagship. I’m paying for them to have an experience that I / H value highly, and to get an excellent education. “Money payback” doesn’t fit into that equation except tangentially. Likewise, I paid for my family to go to Europe because it was an experience we wanted them to have, not because it was going to “pay back” financially. People do that all the time with things they value – having their kids learn musical instruments, follow an EC, etc. </p>
<p>I don’t care if you could look into the future and say “your kids will only earn $5k/year thSn if they had attended the flagship.” At all. Not my measure. It may be yours, but don’t make it mine.</p>
<p>Mini,</p>
<p>I doubt your DD will ever be unemployed. She nails her interviews. Having “known” her since before she went to college, she is off the Bell curve, like her parents.</p>
<p>MiamiDAP: I have a hard time believing that my CS son would have had the opportunities he did, had he gone to OUR flagship. There was more than one right college, just not in-state.</p>
<p>Holy smokes! </p>
<p>Arguably, most folks believe that “elite” schools are “better” schools. It’s no surprise that elite schools spend resources (money and time) to increase yield (a quantifiable and objective data point) and preserving their “highly selective status”. What I find ironic (my opinion) is that many of these same “elite” schools (and public schools, too) do not track the long term success of graduates using quantifiable and objective data points (or, subjective data points either). </p>
<p>Wouldn’t it be “smarter” to judge a school based upon “graduate outcomes”, rather than “stats” and “acceptance rates” of applicants? </p>
<p>I don’t see the moral pitfall in using money as data point. After all money does buy allot of enrichment (like European vacations and $60K @ year schools). I will concede that money doesn’t buy happiness. Happiness, in my book, is earned not purchased. And yes I would like very much that my kids secure gainful employment post graduation. It would break my heart to see them live in poverty.</p>
<p>Without data for outcomes (objective or subjective) any discussion about “good” school, Ivies, Sate Us is basically pointless. The whole “selective nonsence” is just to con parents into handing over boatloads of cash.</p>
<p>I think using money as a data point is pretty pointless. Some of my classmates are very wealthy, but my best friends were more interested in doing good. I have two who became ministers, several who became professors, a bunch who are scientists, one runs a small non-profit, a couple became artists, some others are architects. One wrote a bestseller and then never wrote another book. One became governor of Massachusetts. All seem to live comfortable middle class lives, none are wealthy. Very few are famous.</p>
<p>So feel free to evaluate using salary as your criteria, then! (Are you going to use starting salary? Salary x years after graduation? What if the person becomes an at-home parent with no salary – have they “failed”?)</p>
<p>Just don’t tell me <em>I</em> need to use salary as <em>my</em> criteria. I’ll spend my money the way I want to, which in my case includes elite colleges that my kids worked hard to gain admission to. I sent my kids to public high school but I didn’t require that parents who sent their kids to private high schools justify their decision to me, so I’m not sure why I need to justify my decision to anyone else. </p>
<p>Of my friends who attended the same elite school I did, one is a Tony award winning costume designer on Broadway – but she doesn’t really make a lot of money. Another works nonprofit for a gun control foundation – a relative of hers was a big time govt employee who was shot and disabled in the course of his duties during an assassination attempt (you can connect the dots here). Another owned a yoga studio and is now publishing books of poetry. They are happy and healthy and they aren’t “less successful” than those of us who went into law, medicine, business, etc.</p>
<p>Rankings by grad earnings exist. At least one ranking by social mobility exists. We don’t need to address this as a hypothetical.</p>
<p>And that’s driven by Wall Street. Which, if your kid isn’t interested in Wall Street, is completely irrelevant to anything. MIT and other engineering schools also do well on these metrics - but so what, if your kid isn’t interested in engineering.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Okay, there’s the agenda. Further conversation is obviously pointless.</p>
<p>Thanks naval. But what I’m wondering about is comparative rankings that control for parents socioeconomic status. (I guese that may be covered under “social mobility”) Also interesting would be historical data across a spectrum of careers. Any ideas where I can find these stats? Thanks. </p>
<p>Anidotally, what I see in my social circle is that person’s college “eliteness” has zero impact on their future happiness or earnings. Granted they may have worked extra hard to gain admission into brown, harvard or amherst. Bravo! But in the long run all they earned were bragging rights. Brown in particular. Now that I think of it everyone of my ivy friends is divorced, except one who attended Barnard (and is exc at CBS TV). Three (arts majors) are still living off their parents at 50!
Of my friends, who I perceive as happy and successful (strong marriages, well adjusted kids, successful careers, comfortable life styles) either attended state or no-name schools or in one instance didn’t graduate college at all. Go figure.</p>
<p>Well, thank goodness no one ever said “I want my kids going to elite schools because they’ll never be divorced, require therapy, or have bad hair days like those state school kids.” </p>
<p>What is your point? No one has said or implied that elite school attendance = the golden ticket to a perfect life. It’s an experience and education that some people value and are willing to pay for. </p>
<p>As long as it’s not your dollar, I’m not sure why you should care. Plenty of people spend money on things I don’t see the value in – well, their problem, not mine.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The data to produce such a ranking isn’t really available, not at the level of granularity to do it right. The best you could do look at overall median earnings by school[0] and check that against percentage of students receiving Pell grants[1]. </p>
<p>The way Washington Monthly measures it is they look at the percentage of students receiving Pell, come up with a predicted graduation rate based on that (because more Pell generally = lower grad rate). Schools with higher grad rates than predicted by Pell % get more points.[2]</p>
<p>That’s still not ideal, because it doesn’t tell you how less advantaged students do, only how colleges with many less advantaged students do. </p>
<p>Possibly the best worst option that resembles what you’re looking for is the African-American graduation rate. Where African-American is a not-great but serviceable proxy for lower SES and graduation is a not-great but serviceable proxy for “success”. You’re not going to like how this one shakes out.[3]</p>
<p>[0] [WSJ.com[/url</a>] (click twice on the heading to sort)</p>
<p>[1] [url=<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/economic-diversity/spp+50]Economic”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/economic-diversity/spp+50]Economic</a> Diversity | Rankings | Top National Universities | US News](<a href=“http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-Salaries_for_Colleges_by_Type-sort.html]WSJ.com[/url”>WSJ.com)</p>
<p>[2] [National</a> University Rankings 2013 | Washington Monthly](<a href=“http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/rankings_2013/national_university_rank.php]National”>http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/rankings_2013/national_university_rank.php)</p>
<p>[3] <a href=“http://www.jbhe.com/images/issue50/blackstudent_gradrates2.gif[/url]”>http://www.jbhe.com/images/issue50/blackstudent_gradrates2.gif</a></p>
![http://www.jbhe.com/images/issue50/blackstudent_gradrates2.gif[/url]](http://www.jbhe.com/images/issue50/blackstudent_gradrates2.gif%5B/url%5D){kind=link}
<p>Because the USA has not produced many 1000’s of upper income AA families by now?? I present you with the First Kids. Malia Obama and Sasha Obama</p>
<p>Go figure, momneeds2no! My H went to Brown and we’re not divorced and we have happy kids, oh yes, and he’s done well financially, thank you very much, and I know lots of Brown grads in a similar situation. Actually, come to think of it, most of my friends, I’m happy to report, are doing very well and they attended all sorts of schools: elite, state, and a few have not even graduated from college at all! I’m thrilled (and fortunate) that my kids are full pay at Brown and Harvard. I just hope that they are able to make ends meet after they graduate - you know multiple divorces and therapy are REALLY expensive nowadays.</p>
<p>The direct correlation between college and “success” in life doesn’t seem to be very strong down the middle - though at the fringes there may be a difference. And it’s awfully difficult to define success for someone else. Brown, for example, sends almost 30% of its class every year into the public sector - not particularly high paying jobs, but probably jobs that provide a great deal of satisfaction among that group. The notion that there must always be a set return on investment when choosing a college is not a belief held by everyone. I personally find this view rather narrow minded.</p>