I wish people were a little more welcoming to a new poster, even if the OP’s choice of words provoked people. It makes it hard for someone to come back and experience the benefits of CC if your first post results in being pounded on for 8 pages. Also, I think the term “safety” is used more loosely outside of CC. It has a specific meaning here on CC, which is a place of virtually guaranteed admission that is affordable and that you’re willing to attend. But outside CC, especially for someone new to the process, it probably means a place where, based on your school’s Naviance, you and the GC feel confident of admission. Particularly an in state school that the GC is very familiar with and to which the school regularly sends lots of students. So while UVA and W&M aren’t safeties in CC parlance, if the OP’s kid is very high stats, it’s understandable that the GC and OP feel confident about admission. It’s good to warn OP that, as @brantly points out, high stats students sometimes experience surprise rejections. But no need to beat him up about it.
William & Mary accepts 46% of Virginians, even if the total admissions rate is 27%. UVa accepts about 40% of Virginians. I personally wouldn’t call them safeties (there are many, many top students from Virginia who apply to them because they are so good), but for a Virginia HS student they are safer than they look based on the overall acceptance rate. That said, I agree that every family needs to make their own decisions about how to build their list. And the good news is that Virginia has so many excellent public universities!
I’m liberal and non-religious (and black and queer), but even I can recognize that there are some colleges that might freeze out a young conservative Christian man. I went to Columbia for graduate school. While there are lots of Christians on campus, I can see how a conservative and openly religious Christian might be uncomfortable there! It’s not about not being around or near a lot of other people who think exactly the same as you; it’s pretty obvious from the OP’s list that’s not the case. It’s about being allowed to grow and learn at your own pace and not feel…berated or attacked for your opinions, or even feel like there are at least a few other people who understand your upbringing. I can understand wanting that even if I don’t agree with the opinions themselves.*
Fortunately I don’t think any on the list would be - they all are relatively neutral politically and some of them, on the continuum of colleges, are more conservative. (Only on the continuum of colleges - in the regular life continuum they are all pretty liberal places, but that’s because colleges tend to be so.) I’d also recommend Washington & Lee, maybe Vanderbilt, maybe Dartmouth, maybe USC (depending on whether the concern is mostly about viewpoint and politics and less about actual culture).
*And honestly, I would much rather go to a place with some considered conservatives with whom I could have lively yet civil discussions, and learn from, than go to a place with all liberals and no diversity of thought. One of my favorite teachers in high school was a staunch conservative and I learned SO MUCH from him that I had never thought of or heard about from my other teachers - including the concept that money for social programs had to come from somewhere. Hard to believe I made it to 17 without ever thinking of that.
The instate kids, in general, applying to UVa and W & M, are top students in their classes so there is somewhat of a self selection process in applications. Most kids and their guidance counselors have a good idea of whether or not a kid has a shot at acceptance. Kids who are not top students in their respective public schools usually would not bother to apply. Although TJHSST kids who are not at the top of their class probably apply because it is a magnet with admissions requirements. Privates instate have a screening process as well. Many of the kids, even not the “top” kids there , will still have great SAT’s and good grades.
Well, I’ve known enough kids that had no chance and still applied to top schools. No matter that they were being guided by experienced people and encouraged to apply more appropriately. I think it’s hard to accept that you are not exceptional. Then there were others that had a chance but still no dice. It’s s tough world out there…
UVa gets many more OOS applicants than IS. Rounding it is about 20,000 applicants from OOS, about 10,000 instate. The instate kids and their guidance counselors are more likely to have a realistic view of chances. For a lot of OOS applicants, I would imagine UVa is just one of many applications thrown out to top schools, hoping something sticks.
zinhead - re post #108: Because as others have noted, the OP used inflammatory language like “persecuted” and “indoctrinated.” The responses might have been more muted if the OP simply asked what a good school for a conservative student would be.
@Intparent “Kenyon is pretty liberal, I agree with @Lindagaf. D2’s best friemd from HS went there (and D2 was accepted). The friend has ditched Catholicism and gotten herself a girlfriend since getting to college. Some of this change started before she left for college, but Kenyon didn’t slow it down. I think this is probably just what the OP is worried about.”
Um.
- Kenyon college is not responsible for D2’s friend being gay. You are either gay or you aren’t.
- How would Kenyon slow it down? If the student is gay there is no slowing down.
- This is probably what the OP is worried about? That Kenyon will make their son gay? If the son is gay, Kenyon may help him come out, but it will not make him gay, if he isn’t already. You think they think their son is really gay and they want to find a school where he will have to stay in the closet? I am confused.
@blprof The use of the word persecuted was probably an exaggeration, but indoctrinated was not.
Examples of the “indoctrination” you are referring to that are common among various universities (particularly the ones named by the OP in the initial post)?
Indoctrinated = having someone contradict their political beliefs.
@ucbalumnus Oh Lord you can’t be serious. White Privilege seminars, pronoun usage, the various rules inhibiting free speech and expression. These are all intended to indoctrinate students, overtly or covertly. Was your question a serious one?
Texas A&M made me more liberal. I came from CA, where conservatives were moderate. After seeing conservative conservatives, I quickly realized I didn’t want to be one of them, and found my (few) people on the campus. OP’s son is not necessarily “safe” from “indoctrination” anywhere.
@blprof: On the Notre Dame thread, a kid asked about being gay at Notre Dame, and asked whether the school would consider him a “walking bag of sin”. He received supportive answers. OP here also uses strong language to express his concerns- but is asking for advice as a new poster, and receives a much less supportive response.
@Juillet above gives an incredible and thoughtful response, understands what the OP is getting at, and she’s the opposite mindset as the OP.
Webster’s simple definition of indoctrinate: to teach (someone) to fully accept the ideas, opinions, and beliefs of a particular group and to not consider other ideas, opinions, and beliefs.
The term “indoctrinate” as commonly used suggests brainwashing. As a professor, I object to the idea that I or my colleagues “indoctrinate” students since I have dedicated myself to teaching students how to think. So yes, I find that inflammatory.
@“Virginia Dad 1819” I would be interested in hearing what PC activity your son would find uncomfortable.
For example would union strikes or Black Lives Matters protests be a problem? Would sexual assault training or substance abuse tolerance be a problem?
Oh the plight of the white evangelical male. Not a lot of those around. Must be SO hard to fit in.
Give me a break lol
Regarding whether the use of the term “indoctrinated” is inflammatory, note that the actual phrase the OP used was “forcibly indoctrinated”. You can maybe make a case that the use of “indoctrinated” alone is not inflammatory and biased – much less so for “forcibly indoctrinated”.
I’ll avoid any snarky comments about religion being the place for forcible indoctrination.
I think it’s a bit sad that there are over 100 posts with few answering the OP’s question. (I know I’m adding to that- sorry I can’t answer because I’m not familiar with all the schools in the list)
At liberal universities in California there are instances where classroom discussions can make conservative students feel uncomfortable. As a liberal myself I certainly had never noticed until a classmate from Texas shared how belittled she felt at times. As a professor, I always try to keep that in mind when asking questions and inviting discussion. I try to offer alternative positions in case there are students too nervous to speak out. In speaking with my own children about this thread, I believe one of the biggest problems facing our society today, is the inability for people to respectfully disagree with each other. We don’t ever want to listen to opposing viewpoints and conversations turn ugly very quickly. I certainly hope we can work to change that and I’d like to think the university is a good place to start.
@Much2learn, that same kid at Liberty would not have likely found many other gay students, been able to come out and date a woman openly, and would have still had some religious requirements in their school environment. Not saying the changes wouldn’t have happened eventually. But a lot of conservative parents think they can hold back the tide if they just put their kid in the correct environment. If the OP is looking for an environment where their kid will have fewer opportunities and possibly temptations to act in ways inconsistent with the OP’s values, a school like Kenyon might not be the place for them. It isn’t like there is a critical mass of conservative students at Kenyon, either – I think there is not.
When attending an alumni reunion at Yale a senior administrator spoke about their view of their role. They believe it is their responsibility to break down the values and worldviews of their students (those embedded by their parents and previous teachers) and replace them with their version of a progressive worldview. Is this not purposeful indoctrination? If nothing else it reflects the peak of arrogance.
I don’t perceive that the OP is trying to shelter his son, but simply to have him attend a college where:
- There is open honest deep dialogue which respectfully listens to all perspectives related to the issues of our time, and is not limited by political correctness. Is this not what a liberal arts education should be all about?
- Professors and students don’t belittle those holding views with which they disagree (which does happen and is a form of persecution).
- The administration and faculty don’t purposefully seek to eradicate the values instilled in the years prior to college through overt or subtle indoctrination. This does not mean that the college shouldn’t respectfully challenge students and seek to broaden and deepen their ability to think critically, but that it shouldn’t be dismissive of alternative worldviews that may not align perfectly with their own (perhaps they too may have something to learn).
- There is a student body in which the diversity of worldviews and interests permit his son to both learn from others who think differently and find a body of friends with shared values and interests.
Is the above not the kind of college experience we should all be seeking for our children?