@am61517 :
It’s the norm that college will allow students to think for themselves rather than repeat what they’ve been told in childhood. That’s what adult do, think for themselves. It means reconsidering everything and deciding for yourself, after careful consideration, what perspective you’ll hold and why. No adult can get away with ‘it too is true, it is what it is because my mom told me so’.
There must have been a misunderstanding :
‘and replace them with their version’… Their = their children 's, not their =Yale’s. Be careful not to hear what you fear you’ll hear.
(that speech is pretty standard and I’m definite about the meaning.)
@MYOS1634, there is a difference between encouraging children to think for themselves based on all of the input they have received over their lifetime, including what they learn in college (as they are exposed to additional knowledge and experiences, and refine their critical thinking skills), versus a purposeful reprogramming. The first is commendable, the second reflects an academic arrogance and is, in my view, inappropriate. I will leave it up to others to discern the meaning behind the “speech.” I have now heard it at more than one of the top universities (albeit in different forms) and my interpretation differs from yours.
^ however I can guarantee you that the way you receive it, is NOT what is meant. The speech is standard and it really is ‘make children into adults by making sure they think for themselves’.
(if colleges had a nefarious plan to indoctrinate undergrads, do you think they’d say so to every group of parents that come to their sessions ?)
I reread OP’s post in order to try to see why it has elicited such strong reaction. I think it might be the phrase “tolerance toward OUR views.” That, along with “WE’D like to find a place where . . .” (Emphasis mine)
Most of us want a good “fit” for our children. But we also want them to be independent thinkers. Half of college for OP’s son will be receiving an outstanding STEM education, but the other half will be about the journey into adulthood: developing autonomy and making good, informed, decisions. That involves living with, arguing with, having fun with people who think differently from you/him. 20, 30 years down the road, the late-night conversations we tend to remember are the ones that challenged us, not the ones where, say, someone agreed with us on some controversial point.
There is a reason why 140 posters haven’t ranked the schools, as OP asked. First, it can’t be done. But second, OP shouldn’t be looking for a school where “we” are comfortable. He should let his son take the lead on this important decision. And the son can easily do that by visiting, eating in the cafeteria, staying overnight, and sitting in on classes.
@MYOS1634, I respectfully will need to disagree, and as I was there, and you weren’t, I find it interesting that you are overtly trying to superimpose your worldview on mine rather than listening. As I commented above, I fully agree with the fact that our children need to own their “own” worldview, and that colleges have an important role in shaping it by adding knowledge, exposure and critical thinking skills (which is why I am currently fully paying for two private university educations). Unfortunately, however, in today’s elite academic environment it goes beyond that to indoctrination. Read some of the comments made by others in this thread.
Just to point out that this is a common “stump speech” in the higher ed world, and you have no way of knowing if I was there or heard it as often if not more often than you did…
I am not trying to surimpose my worldview but trying to clear up a misunderstanding.
It’s a bit as if someone passing through your town misread a sign because they were thinking of something else when they drove by, and you pointed out that, logically, the sign couldn’t possibly have indicated what they thought it did, and you could quote the sign as well as its twins in the neighborhood because you live 20 yards from it even if you might not have been near the sign at the precise moment your friend drove by.
However, I also know you’re quite certain you heard what you say you heard at several colleges and that I won’t be able to change your mind or make you consider you migh have misunderstood all these Deans and Deans of Admissions in the way they present their university.
Let’s move on.
I am not clear on who would be doing the forcible indoctrination. Is this the administration through course requirements? Not every school requires a special course in gender studies or diversity (if this is what you are referring to). And it’s easy to check online what courses are required. I’m not sure how a STEM education, classes in math, chemistry, physics and computer science, would lead to forcible indoctrination.
I can understand wanting to live in a respectful and tolerant community, and one where your son would fit in. I assume we all want that. There are definitely school communities that are much more left leaning. I think you could get a feel for this by extended visits.
I attended a middle-of-the-road state school. The only ‘indoctrination’ I ever experienced was the night before a mechanical engineering exam. I was studying with a Christian who had his friends gather together to pray for me so that I would accept Jesus into my life. I am Jewish, so this did indeed make me uncomfortable. I do not consider this representative of the school. It was a one time event.
@OntheBubble: Really, white privilege seminars are “indoctrination”? Is it also indoctrination to advocate for free speech or against sexual violence? The world is changing, and colleges are often the first places where progress happens, youth and learning offers all kinds of possibilities. If this makes some people uncomfortable, that’s a good thing in my book. We should be uncomfortable about some things.
The uncomfortable only goes one way, though. Speaking on campus about conservative ideals in and of itself is considered a ‘micro-aggression’ on some campuses. Free speech zone on a public campus? Isn’t the whole thing a free speech zone?
In my personal experience, the worst offenders of this as professors are the English professors. I had one years ago for a literature course. Just plain English lit. Everything we read she routed back to a feminist viewpoint to such an extreme that the women in the class were uncomfortable. Then came the day when we were to watch Dangerous Liaisons in class. She had trouble with the VCR (I said it was a while ago) and said ‘could one of you gentlemen in the back help me with this?’ Apparently, calling her out on her hypocrisy was not appreciated. She asked me to drop the class. I did.
^Uncomfortable only goes one way??? Tell that to James Meredith as he tried to enter the University of Mississippi. He’s still living, and he suffered a macro-aggression.
Oh, and let’s get rid of the English professors because one asked you for help. 8-|
Again, I think the OP’s choice of words in the first post was unfortunately inflammatory. @juillet was gracious enough to look past that and try to imagine what someone in the OP’s shoes might be concerned about. How about if we all try to do that instead of immediately defending our own political positions?
I’m copying a post that’s currently active on the Occidental board to illustrate what I think the OP is probably concerned about. http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19534535/#Comment_19534535
Oxy is not on the OP’s list, but if it were, this sort of information would probably be useful to the OP in deciding whether Oxy is the best fit. I’m guessing that the problem discussed in the Oxy post – being called out and labelled for not participating in protests – may be a greater problem at a smaller school like an LAC where everyone knows everyone else. Something similar allegedly happened at Dartmouth though with protestors marching through and temporarily occupying the library and confronting non-participants. http://thedartmouth.com/2015/11/17/college-sees-no-official-reports-of-violence-at-protest-despite-rumors/
My advice to the OP is to go online and read the student newspapers at each of the schools on his list, going back through the Fall, and that may help give a feel for the atmosphere on campus.
I’d also suggest Liberty. Two of my cousins go there, brother and sister from rural Michigan. They’re strong Christians, and are having a great experience.
They’re conservative, BUT: I think they’re tolerant of different viewpoints (which does make a difference).
I’m sensing a new kind of helicopter parent developing, a parent type that wants to accompany their child to college to make sure they are protected from any type of view that runs counter to what they’ve taught their children. Shield them from Black lives matter! Keep them out of those classes where the English professors espouse feminist views! No Jane Austen for my child!
^I agree. OP is right that some environments would be less open-minded for her/his son and some environments can be at times downright too much for most. Regardless, it’s natural for him to want a good fit. I agree that schools like Oxy, Oberlin, Macalester wouldn’t be appropriate for this student. However they weren’t listed.
Duke
Carnegie Mellon
MIT
Rice
Princeton
Stanford
University of Chicago
University of Pennsyvania
University of Virginia
Washington University in St. Louis
William and Mary
would probably all be safe.
Vanderbilt, Georgetown, Washington&Lee, TAMU, Purdue, RHIT, Davidson, Denison, Hope, Wofford, Wheaton, Hillsdale, would be good additions, too.
I think its interesting that in other threads posters are trying to avoid, preppy, vineyard vines, boat shoe campuses as they are labeled as not being liberal, but on this thread those same schools are being cast as - liberal.
The truth is that at a majority of schools, you will find a majority of students and teachers in the center. Yes - the OP may want to avoid, Oberlin and Vassar, but lots of liberal arts schools will have conservatives and republicans.
But contrary to what some politicians would have you believe, being accepting of gay rights and marriage equality is not a left-wing/liberal/NY values type of thing, it is a view accepted by a majority of Americans these days and is in fact mainstream.
Is Liberty really a great choice for a tippy-top STEM student (undefined by the OP, but let’s take his word for it)?
Honestly, if the student is a strong practicing Christian, I think he’ll have no issues at any of the schools on the original list, assuming he can get accepted. His state flagship should be fine for a safety; if he’s as impressive as implied, I’m sure they’d love to have him and would make it an enticing option (as would several other state flagships that are seeking high-stats OOS students).
I want to reaffirm @rayrick’s suggestion that the OP send a PM to @sbjdorlo, who was looking for a similar school for her son several years ago.
rnl2691 says, " Is it also indoctrination to advocate for free speech or against sexual violence?"
OP in no way says he is against advocating for free speech or against sexual violence. I can’t believe the things people are reading into his question. And picking apart his words the way that so many posters have done to vilify his intentions. OP does not say he is against his S hearing a variety of viewpoints. I think he is against his son being bullied the way he is now being bullied on this board. I think some posters here are proving his original statement.
I also want to point out that OP has refrained from engaging posters. I think that would have fueled worse for him. I hope that he has not been driven from posting on CC again. He certainly has not received the help he asked for.
Everyone deserves basic decency. Everyone should be welcome here.
Comments like @RattaNoodles are unkind and unnecessary:
“Oh the plight of the white evangelical male. Not a lot of those around. Must be SO hard to fit in. Give me a break lol”
And @Corinthian, your remarks deserve more than an up vote. I want to say that I think you use exceptional reason and understanding in your posts.
Ruby789: I thought I was clear that I was mostly replying to another poster, and there have been a few on this thread, who were sharing the the OP’s concerns about “indoctrination.” I agree everyone deserves basic decency, but shouldn’t we also be able to express different perspectives? Of course the OP wasn’t advocating against free speech or for sexual violence, that’s my point. You may not consider efforts to address systemic racism, and raise awareness about white privilege to be just as important, but I do.
I would put it this way: as an atheist, if I happen to get into a conversation where my religious status is revealed, I will get a funny look in the suburban area near NYC I live in. The comparison is that at some schools, and I’d include Penn in that list as it is my alma mater and I am still involved with alumni activities, the reverse is true: as a devout Christian, and a conservative, if your son happens to get into a conversation where his religious status is revealed, he may get a funny look at Penn and many of the colleges on that list.
And like me, he may hear some things and see some things that makes him wonder if he is part of the student body or outside it.
The only concern I would have is that if you are evangelical, real evangelical not just political polling evangelical, and your son would want to make friends, and then spread the Word to them. This would point towards Christian colleges where he would feel free to discourse on Christianity with friends. Yes, anyone who tries to indoctrinate their friends in a religion, or out of a religion, with be ostracized.
As others said - talk to your son about it, and make sure it is his decision. If he is confident in his religion, no class where a professor says “there is no God” and no lunch conversation where a classmate is atheist and supports their position as moral and substantiated, will change his view.
Any student made “uncomfortable” by what a class is talking about should speak up. It is very clear when I talk to relatives from Texas and friends from other areas of the South, that things that are status quo in the Northeast just don’t seem to be that way in other areas of the US, and vice versa.
Someone told me to have a Blessed day last week, and I said “Thank you”. I didn’t get into a philosophical discussion. I didn’t tell them about my beliefs. There was no need to change what they wanted to do, and they meant well without overt religious overtones.
I do think that if I taught philosophy, it would likely become clear that I was talking about Christians in the third person, and that might make some students incomfortable. If the OP’s son is not pursuing liberal arts including philosophy and psychology, I’d be not very worried about “being indoctrinated”.
When I was in college, there were many many posters around the dorm areas that said “3 in 10 people are homosexual” (rates are closer to 5%, 1 in 20, according to surveys, FWIW). It was intimidating to some extent, and the soft porn posters on our RA’s walls were also intimidating. We didn’t report him, like we would a straight guy with similar posters of women on the walls, because we were afraid we would be labelled “homophobic”. Yes, if you are afraid of that kind of thing happening to your son, keep him out of mainstream colleges.
I believe the OP means well, just as me and my son talked about him not attending a Christian-affiliated college because we were worried about how he would be treated. I think perhaps a happy medium can be struck for the OP’s son - there are Christian-affiliated colleges that are not “Christian colleges” that could be a great choice, like Notre Dame and Boston College.
CMU should probably come off MYOS’ list (post #153). Google CMU Carnival student dressed as Pope.