^You have to keep in mind the fact college students will do stupid/sophomoric/offensive things about anywhere, without it being representative of the “vibe”.
^That’s assuming one thinks this was a “stupid/sophomoric/offensive” act. Whether CMU stays on the list depends on how many peers felt this was legitimate protest, and whatever else happens at Carnival and throughout the year. I’ve been to Carnival, and I have two relatives who are CMU alums. My own opinion–others may differ–is that OP probably would not be comfortable with his son there.
" You may not consider efforts to address systemic racism, and raise awareness about white privilege to be just as important, but I do." @rnl2691: OH BOY. Did I say I am for systemic racism? This is the kind of thing I mean about reading into things in order to put people down.
Let me tell you something. My family is multiracial. I typically don’t get specific about my particular background but a grandparent that I dearly love (now deceased) faced REAL racism and bullying. My in-laws also faced racism during WW2 and were displaced, were interned, and suffered terribly in unbelievable ways.
So I recognize bullying when I see it. In this case, I think some posters are deliberately looking to misunderstand the OP. That’s very different from “expressing different perspectives”.
The OP came here asking for advice, and instead of helping him, you’re using it to “raise awareness about white privilege” .
I get white privilege. I don’t need anyone to raise my awareness. What I don’t get is blaming individuals who had nothing to do with it, and bullying them. There are constructive ways to solve major social issues.
Yes, it is absolutely indoctrination.
And I say this as someone who is not white.
Oh, and to respond to the OP’s question, consider Vanderbilt. We just toured it and loved it. We find it politically moderate.
I missed who said this, but white privilege seminars and others like it when they are mandatory and compulsory fit the very definition of indoctrination.
What sometimes happens on these boards is that when people identify themselves as being of Christian faith, a vocal minority of posters immediately identify them as bigoted, racist, Klan members who can only be happy at a Bob Jones type of school. This draws back to the political battles of the past 20 years when the biggest opponents to gay rights were Evangelicals. Many on this forum seek to continue the culture wars on a micro-level by demonizing anyone who expresses concerns like the OP’s.
@Ruby789: it can obviously be challenging to have these sorts of discussions online, without context, facial expressions, or tone. I’m not trying to suggest that you or anyone else is racist or for systemic racism. I’m just saying that what I hear, when I hear people uncomfortable with efforts to address racism, or stating that efforts to raise awareness of white privilege is “indoctrination”, is a defensiveness that makes me sad. No one was minimizing the challenges you or your family have faced, no one was accusing you of anything. If we all agree that bullying and racism are bad, then I would think we would all want to support efforts to address them, even if we don’t find each specific attempt to our liking. I’m not sure these sorts of conversations can be had online, where people seem quicker to perceive attacks than ever happens face to face.
OP, in my experience, Naviance can overestimate chances. There was a kid the other day plugging in a 3.18 GPA and Naviance was telling him he had like a 80% chance of being accepted OOS at Michigan State. Michigan State lets in around 60% of applicants and their 25/75% range on GPA is 3.4/3.9. No way this kid has an 80% chance based on the numbers he provided us.
Anyway, I would count UVA and William & Mary as matches, definitely not safeties, even if you are in-state.
I second the recommendation of Sewanee by @MidwestDad3 – very strong rep, beautiful campus, fairly well balanced student body and faculty, plenty of attention and support, small classes. That may be a match or low match for your son.
I think you might also look into Wake Forest and Tulane for two more match-range schools.
For a true safety, you might look at one of the lesser Virginia state schools (one he wouldn’t mind attending) or private colleges.
Two more:
- Luther College (Decorah, IA) --> top-100 LAC
- St. Olaf College (Minnesota) --> top-50 LAC
In sum, my recommendations, or reiterations, of schools to consider:
Wake Forest - High match/match
Tulane - High match/match
Sewanee - Match
St. Olaf - Match
Luther - Low match
VCU, GMU, JMU, or ODU - Safety
This thread is getting so off topic…
I’m from NJ, just outside of NYC, so I understand what you mean. I’ve had students say things like “Christians are crazy, Christians are stupid” and the teacher has laughed. Not every kid is strong enough to speak up at this age!
Sorry you’re not receiving much help…maybe add Emory?
@rnl2691: Yes, thank you. I am in complete agreement. I took a few minutes to calm down, and I apologize for my part in making this a more contentious discussion. In all the years I’ve been a member at CC, this is the first time I let myself get so heated. I’ve always endeavored to offer facts and examples in making my points, and this time it was emotion.
@prezbucky - I mentioned Sewanee back in post#29, but, now I’m having second thoughts. An American who self-identifies as an “Anglican” may, in fact, be estranged from the mainline Episcopal community and, in fact, may find a place like Sewanee anathema. Hard to say since that was over 100 posts ago.
It me, so much depends on what the OP means by conservative.
If the student wants a school where there are many religious students who don’t drink alcohol don’t smoke cigarettes or and don’t smoke weed, that is doable at many/all of the schools mentioned.
If conservative means not accepting of women as equal to men, not accepting gay students, or not accepting other religions, that is much different and would be difficult at all of the listed schools.
What constitutes indoctrination is complicated. If the student is in science classes, he may learn about how scientists know that evolution happened, and how scientists know that the earth is billions of years old. Is that indoctrination? It could seem like it if your religion is in conflict with that science. However, they are teaching it because that is how the world is, not with a goal to changing someone’s religious world view.
“Yes, anyone who tries to indoctrinate their friends in a religion, or out of a religion, with be ostracized.”
True, but that also means that students will not bother you about your views, if you don’t bother them. My daughter is at Penn and her close friends are very religiously diverse: Catholic, Jewish, Protestant, Hindu, and not religious. They all accept one another, and no one is trying to convert the others. There are religious organizations on campus to support all common religions.
I doubt most at Sewanee are the overly or “in your face” religious type. (or even Episcopal, for that matter) I’m thinking they could coexist. There’s also the political part to think about and there are certainly schools more politically liberal than Sewanee.
@MidwestDad3 Apparently, one person’s “fit” is another person’s “helicopter.” You said:
Don’t we on CC regularly admonish posters to consider fit? Don’t we also regularly criticize folks for not having done their research? It seems hypocritical then for us to bash someone who, albeit somewhat clumsily, tries to research fit.
@"“Virginia Dad 1819” , I was tagged for this thread, so I’ll throw in some comments, but do feel free to PM me when you’ve posted enough so you can do so! 
My oldest son is a strong Christian, and I would call him socially and probably politically conservative; but, really, I would call him a gospel-believing Christian, one that believes in the inerrancy of scripture, probably more aligned with reformed doctrine. He also happens to be one of the most open minded in terms of listening to others and having friends of all stripes, though I know he is discerning about how he uses his time. He’s not perfect; he makes mistakes, but it seems his non-Christian friends respect him for the most part despite differences in beliefs. His best friend on campus (besides his fiancee) is not a Christian, I don’t think.
@MITer94 mentioned the Veritas forum last week at MIT; my son attended and found it informative.
He is graduating from MIT this year. He applied to, and was accepted to, Princeton, Penn, Mudd, Caltech, WUSTL, Vanderbilt, and three safety schools.
He’s found MIT to be a really good place to be a Christian. There are some excellent, doctrinally sound Christian churches in the Boston area. He’s been very involved in Cru and his church as well as small group (bible study) meetings in his dorm.
Princeton has some really good groups including PEF (Princeton Evangelical Fellowship). Penn has a “green light” for free speech, according to the FIRE website. My middle son will be attending Penn. He’s a very different kind of Christian than my oldest son. I would still call him socially and politically conservative, but culturally, he’s much more worldly. I hope Penn will be a good place for him. We have a young Christian friend who enjoyed her time at Penn very much.
Harvey Mudd has some Christian professors (Francis Su, head of MAA, and David Vos in chemistry). I would not call them conservative Christians, though. The Claremont Colleges have IVF rather than Cru.
My son did not like Caltech when he visited. He felt the students were “coarse”, even ones that were in Christian groups. That could have just been an “off” day.
He didn’t visit any other schools, so I can’t speak of any other reach schools.
His faith grew and deepened at MIT because he had to walk out his faith and really know what he believed. We homeschooled (though most of his middle school and high school education was through the community college and a local state univ.) and he did have a good background in Christian apologetics, but it was only after getting to campus and having his faith challenged that he really dug in.
There were plenty of bumps and rough patches, but I can say I am grateful to God that my son was at MIT.
HTH a little.
@Corinthian If “fit” means shielding them from what they will be faced with in the world, then of course you are correct.
My concern is that it is the parents talking here, and not the students. I suspect many of the students are actually much more flexible then the parents give them credit for including, possibly, OP’s son.
He should be fine at any of those schools, so long as he has thick skin and is well grounded. Just because there are a lot of liberal professors and students doesn’t mean anyone will be indoctrinated. It is a big diverse world out there and you just have to have confidence in your beliefs. it is good to get ideologically challenged. It can help solidify the beliefs learned at home.
It’s been mentioned before, but OP should definitely consider Purdue as a safety/match school for his son depending on his son’s profile. My conservative sister and goes there and she and her friends all say it’s pretty apolitical, even leaning conservative, as an organization and there are a variety of different viewpoints there. Mitch Daniels is the president I suppose, so that shouldn’t be all that surprising.
@am61517, I’ve been think about how to respond to your comment about Williams:
The faculty and student body of Williams definitely lean left, and the administration has definitely made their share of what I would consider bone-headed politically correct decisions in the past few years. But, really, I could say that about every academically rigorous college in the US.
I would put Williams in the same range many other universities and LACs with excellent math/science/economics, like Princeton, MIT, Mudd. (I would also note that math and science are mostly apolitical by nature.)
Even though there may be a pervasive sympathy with social activism on campus, students with conservative viewpoints, both cultural and political aren’t shouted down, ridiculed or “indoctrinated.” There’s a respectful tolerance for and discussion of less widely held beliefs.
My son’s first year Junior Advisor (RA) was a devout Catholic who eventually became a priest. You can imagine the lively late night discussions!
I thought it would be good to re-post the original post, since it was so far back.
A few observations:
- This is the key part of the post:
[quote]
Our family is Christian (Anglican) and politically conservative. He'd like to attend a strong STEM school, mainly a strong math school, but we'd like to find a place where a conservative Christian male won't be persecuted or forcibly indoctrinated.
[/quote]
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think that ANYBODY would want to attend a school where ANYBODY would be “forcibly indoctrinated.” That would be a cult, not an institution of higher learning.
- I think we need more details on what is meant by "conservative Christian." Does it mean he votes Republican and celebrates Christmas? Or does it mean he carries a concealed weapon at all times, thinks gays and Jews are going to hell, and thinks the Earth is 6,000 years old?
- The reason that most colleges and universities are considered "liberal" is because higher education, by definition, involves skepticism, exploration, and the search for new ideas. It's sort of baked into the very concept of higher education. Strict adherence to the Bible and strong belief in old, fading social ideas are not compatible with skepticism, exploration, and the search for new ideas.
That said, even though college may be liberal, it doesn’t necessarily MAKE students liberal. The OP should read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/04/opinion/sunday/college-doesnt-make-you-liberal.html?_r=0