<p>hmm....interesting...bump...</p>
<p>hopkins.. i vote again</p>
<p>Harvard. If you go to some random country they might not even know what Hopkins is but everyone knows Harvard.</p>
<p>You'd get a better response on the SDN pre-med forums.</p>
<p>It's a dumb question to begin with.</p>
<p>As for the comment from the nurse - define "best". Nicest to nurses? Best communicators with patients? Greatest fund of knowledge? Superior physical exam skills? Fastest readers? Most fashionable? Best taste in music?</p>
<p>As for what has the most name recognition in a foreign country - they know about Harvard because of it's overall reputation (mostly from undergrad) NOT because of the medical school. Hell, the overwhelming majority of people in the US have no idea which medical schools are the best.</p>
<p><em>shakes head in disbelief at actually posting a reply on this thread</em></p>
<p>Agree with BDM about the vagueness of the question. It's impossible to say one is better than the other in terms of education, as they have rather different curricula that cater to different types of students, and neither have a huge amount of interest in training purely clinical physicians. I interviewed at Harvard and liked it, but was not overwhelmed or even thought the TEACHING facilities measured up to some of its other peer institutions (WashU, Stanford, Yale, and Pitt come to mind). The sheer size of the HMS faculty and the ungodly amount of money they have is what accounts for their large lead in the USNEWS rankings, appropriate considering said rankings are for research. I for one would have been utterly miserable at Hopkins because of their grading system and notorious shark tank atmosphere (though I hear that has gotten better). Also, both schools are looking for slightly different things in applicants I felt when I was applying, with Harvard being a little more policy-focused and Hopkins caring more about research/numbers.</p>
<p>Bottom line, silly question given many silly answers.</p>
<p>Actually...HMS is a fairly common acronym. And this is a tough one...I'd be happy to get into either. I have no basis for saying which one is objectively better, but if you want to consider the settings then it's HMS by a mile.</p>
<p>I will start this by repeating what seems to be the general conclusion of this string - they are equal. You will not be faulted for choosing one over the other. For those of you past all of this in your training, please do not let me waste your time with this post. However, I thought that it would be somewhat useful to those who were fortunate enough to have acceptances to both, from the perspective of someone who did not get into either, did well at a top 10 medical school, interviewed at JHH and MGH for residency, and preferably ranked and matched at JHH.</p>
<p>Ultimately what matters is where you do your residency (reputation-wise, as the quality of training is great at the majority of accredited programs). As the admissions process for medical school is far from perfect, a handful of people go to these top notch medical schools and do not take full advantage of them, ending up at average residency training programs (which is by no means a bad thing, but obviously people reading this thread are about trying to get the biggest name possible). At least according to the most recent issue of USNews Best Grad Schools, both Harvard and Hopkins have a 4.8 score reputation among residency directors (the only statistic that should really matter to a pre-medical student). They are, however, very different kinds of institutions. </p>
<p>DISCLAIMER: You can obviously spin the numbers in whatever direction your personal bias prefers (mine is obvious, and that is why I hope to balance it out by conceding that they are equivalent overall). The NIH funding numbers are taken from the NIH website for 2007.</p>
<p>OVERVIEW: (Most other numbers taken directly from USNews)</p>
<p>HOPKINS MED
Total Full-Time Faculty: 2,337
Enrollment: 460
Faculty/Student Ratio: 5:1
Total Nobel Laureates Medicine/Physiology: 13
Research Ranking: #2 (Reputation among Residency Directors 4.8)
Hospital Ranking: JHH #1 (30 points) (18 years straight)
NIH Funding: 435 Million (School of Medicine-JHH): The SOM and JHH are continuous.
Endowment: 2 Billion
Location: Baltimore is a fun city as long as you know it well. It is a very dangerous city if you are not careful. However, it is also very easy to get in and out of the city to spectacular surrounding communities if you want to totally bypass such concerns. Fortunately, the billions spent on renovating and expanding are expected to make great strides in the local community around the hospital. The Science + Technology Park at Johns Hopkins is a massive research center under construction that is one of many projects under the general goal of reviving East Baltimore.</p>
<p>HARVARD MED
Total Full-Time Faculty: 7,656
Enrollment: 758
Faculty/Student Ratio: 10:1
Total Nobel Laureates Medicine/Physiology: 11
Research Ranking: #1 (Reputation among Residency Directors 4.8)
Hospital Ranking: MGH #5, (24 points) (Ranging 2-5 for 18 years), BWH #8 (18 points), BIDMC (Not on the USNews honor roll)
NIH Funding: 163 Million (School of Medicine), 303 Million (MGH), 260 Million (BWH), 113 Million (BIDMC): The hospitals are independent but affiliated with the medical school.
Endowment: 4 Billion
Location: Boston is a fantastic city. You will pay at least 1500/month for a small apartment, but there is significantly less worry for walking a block in the wrong direction, and it is a very convenient, clean, and fun place to be. Getting a nice house within commuting distance for a reasonable price may be tough, however.</p>
<p>Harvard Med is composed of three major academic medical centers (as well as a great children's hospital and various other relatively minor hospitals) that are independently run with a teaching/research affiliation with the medical school (there is as much collaboration as there is competition between them). In other words, the endowment and the total NIH funding is essentially spread out over these three hospitals, with MGH holding the highest reputation at around 300 Million in NIH funding per year (286 in 2005) with a #5 clinical ranking among U.S. Hospitals. Each hospital has its own set of residencies and faculty members (with the rare exception of several residency programs that are combined across all hospitals – although with reputations only as good as their best component). Clearly, the TOTAL funding to Harvard Med is unbeatable. The endowment, as is the case for every other Harvard institution, is vast. However, as an individual clinician/researcher, you see what your individual hospital gets in terms of funding and national reputation. You can say "I'm a Harvard Doctor," to anyone in the world and they will be impressed. If you further define that (as you must) by saying "I'm an MGH doctor," to anyone in the medical world, they will be impressed. If you say "I'm a BWH doctor," they will be happy for you. If you say "I'm a BIDMC doctor," they will say, "Okay." Anyone outside of the medical world not living in Boston will say, “Huh?” to all three (but then you can of course resort to your Harvard Bomb to save face regardless of your position on the totem pole of the Harvard Family). The faculty:student ratio probably means less than most people think. No matter where you go to medical school, you will be overseen by one attending and one resident more likely than not at any given time (the Harvard faculty are not all in one hospital competing to teach, as is perhaps evidenced by the equivalent 4.8 rating of the two medical schools - a lot of the quality of your medical education is on your own shoulders and even if you were somehow actually experiencing twice the faculty spoon-feeding you, it would likely not be with significant benefit).</p>
<p>Hopkins Med is composed of one major academic medical center (as well as various other relatively minor hospitals) that is continuous with the medical school. JHH is the #1 hospital in the country directly backed by the medical school with 435 Million in funding per year (450 in 2005). This combination of the greatest clinical reputation and top research funding as a single facility is unique (Johns Hopkins researchers get significantly more NIH funding per faculty than Harvard on average). Although Hopkins University clearly does not have the same reputation as Harvard University, Hopkins Med is flourishing as patients pay closer attention to hospital rankings and note that even TV shows are made around the institution (In early 2000, for Hopkins 24/7, Hopkins initially hesitated, and Stanford and/or MGH were almost selected before Hopkins finally gave in as the first choice for the show, with the sequel series being recently aired). Terms like "rounds" and "residency" originated at Hopkins thanks to Osler, as a daily reminder of the fact that our whole undergraduate and graduate medical education system started there, with the three-fold mission of patient care, research, and education. The Hopkins reputation is AT LEAST as good as Harvard in the medical world, and it is quickly becoming one of those names throughout the country and the world that, at least for one area, may very well eclipse Harvard (as Princeton has frequently for undergrad). Johns Hopkins Medicine International has many affiliations in other countries that proudly boast their connection with "the best medical center in America." Harvard Medical International also has an extensive international network, but obviously this is not necessary to make the general Harvard reputation any more well-known.</p>
<p>There is also admittedly a great deal of variation amongst the different specialties that compose the clinical rankings (neurosurgery, for instance, is best at the Mayo Clinic, with Hopkins at #2 and MGH at #4 (BWH is in the twenties)). OB/GYN is #1 at BWH and #2 at Hopkins (flip-flopped from last year). You could potentially argue that the combination of MGH and Brigham and Women's would top JHH clinically, although the overlap of specialty scores would not seem to validate this claim (especially if you believe that, say, the 5th best program + the 3rd best program in one category are NOT greater than the #1 program). Specialty rankings in USNews Best Graduate Schools section are also misleading. The Internal Medicine Department and Residency at Johns Hopkins (Osler Medical Service) is well-known as #1 in the country within the medical community. The research rankings on USNews simply reflect the TOTAL research money between MGH, BWH, and BIDMC, though all of these independent hospitals have their own residencies/departments of varying reputation. In short, overall NIH funding and overall endowments are really only as good as the people that you have utilizing them - you need to dissect that information out of the lump sum.</p>
<p>In conclusion, considering the history of fathering modern American medicine, being the first research medical university, hatching the three-fold mission that every medical center now emulates, having the greatest concentration of NIH funding amongst the greatest single collection of clinicians in the country, and USNews and the world recognizing Hopkins as the world's best medical center, getting your foot in the door for residency via medical school is not a bad idea. Connections in any line of work are obviously huge.</p>
<p>However, you will likely be on equal footing if you go to Harvard Medical School (assuming your goal is a residency at JHH, and if it is MGH, HMS will obviously give you closer connections). Yes, everyone in the world will know the name Harvard (although you will have to "fess up" to anyone in medicine as to which hospital for residency). Beth Israel and Brigham and Women's are individually not even in the same dimension as JHH. MGH is comparable but falls short as an individual institution. Yes, Harvard Med has the largest total NIH funding that propels it to the top of the research medical school list at 100% (vs. 82% at Hopkins). As I hope to have successfully outlined, however, this means next to nothing as a medical student and even as a resident/faculty member because you will only be at one facility at a time (hopefully MGH). You will gain a better appreciation of this reality as you interview around the country for residency.</p>
<p>Ultimately, you cannot really go wrong ending up at MGH (affectionately called Man’s Greatest Hospital in Samuel Shem’s (was a BIDMC resident) book, “The House of God” in 1978, well before USNews got to ranking hospitals) or JHH (affectionately called God’s Hospital). I suppose rankings are there for us to want to be better than the next guy – which is probably better for patients in the long-run. Neither of these schools are necessary to being a great physician, however. My only point of advice is to not be complacent if you are lucky enough to get into one of these medical schools. Some of the top residency programs at either institution have been known to not take anyone from their corresponding medical school, as, yet again, test scores and class ranking (basically Alpha Omega Alpha membership) become just as important as they were when applying to medical school. Apologize for the smug cloud in advance and the general d-bagginess of even investing this much effort into an endless argument, but best of luck to those who kicked enough ass to be in this position - do not let its potential real benefit slip through your fingers.</p>