Pomona Remains Firm While Other Schools Abandon Early Decision

Parent Cafe
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<p>Interesting development here. </p>

<p>According to Dean of Admissions Bruce Poch, the ED process is fair and does not discriminate against less polished, economically-disadvantaged candidates...</p>

<p>"For its part, Pomona claimed that its applicant pools for early decision are as diverse as the regular decision pool, unlike most schools. “We’re working in somewhat different environments,” said Poch. The school also said that it’s not perceptibly easier to get accepted by applying earlier rather than later.</p>

<p>"Poch also said that Pomona manages its program better than other schools, where early decision is overused. Poch pointed to many checks in the Pomona early decision system that are not present elsewhere. In addition to an early decision program that the college offers for students who submit applications by November 15, students can also apply for “Early Decision 2” as late as December 28. This, said Poch, allows students to complete their search for colleges before indicating Pomona as first choice by contractually obliging themselves to the school.</p>

<p>“We tell students that they should apply to early decision only if they know this is really their first choice, it’s made as clear as possible in the instructions, so we really discourage people from doing it thinking it’s a strategic decision,” Poch said.</p>

<p>"The school’s financial aid office also guarantees to meet “100 percent of the demonstrated need of every admitted enrolling student.” This allows students, the school claims, to be assured they will be able to afford the school before committing.</p>

<p>"But many academics and observers say that the process inherently discriminates against qualified students who apply later, and that the main reason schools such as Pomona will not drop their admissions programs is due to the competitive environment of these colleges’ admissions.</p>

<p>"If Pomona decided to end its early admissions program, the school would be giving up a significant competitive advantage if other colleges kept their programs. This may diminish the quality of our enrolling classes by not locking in good candidates early, say the authors of The Early Admissions Game: Joining the Elite."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.tsl.pomona.edu/index.php?article=1769%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.tsl.pomona.edu/index.php?article=1769&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

2

<p>
[quote]
If Pomona decided to end its early admissions program, the school would be giving up a significant competitive advantage if other colleges kept their programs.

[/quote]

He's right. Just look at the data on cross-admits and not Harvard's lead over other schools.
S's friend visited Pomona and really liked it and thought to apply early. But he was persuaded by alum parents and parent's friends to apply to Harvard SCEA. Once he got in, he no longer bothered to apply to Pomona.</p>

3

<p>I would have been shocked to see Pomona give up ED. Stanford is Pomona's big nemesis. They are sick to death of being Stanford's back up school, and ED is one tool they use to lock up some smart kids before Stanford can come along and poach them.</p>

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<p>To appreciate the position of the Claremont schools even better, it's helpful to know that the Early Decision are far from being overwhelming. For instance, Pomona starting with 5,054 applications has 114 matriculants from its ED rounds versus 269 from the regular rounds. The school had fewer than 400 ED applicants. In addition, the differences in admission rates between the various rounds is almost negligible since the admit rate was about 28% for ED. </p>

<p>The image one finds when looking at the rest of the country's uses of ED, and especially at the Ivy League, is very different. Schools that show admission rates in the 50% or even 70% range or rely on the early rounds to fill 50% of their classes would have a harder time defending the equity and integrity of their policies. At least with a straight face.</p>

<p>PS I still believe that we'll hear a LOT of "Never say never" from the schools clinging to early decisions, especially during next spring and summer. This does not mean that they won't use early admissions--just different and less known programs!</p>

5

<p>xiggi:</p>

<p>I could be way off base, but I don't get the sense that early apps are as big a thing out here in laid-back country, likely as a result of the UCs looming large. For many families, Berkeley or UCLA at $25k just feels better than any east coast college at $45k. In my S's competitive HS, ~15 kids applied early anywhere out of a class of 500+. Moroever, some of those early applicants were not even in the top 10 of the class, so they were just buying a early ticket to H, Y & M lottery, which they promptly lost.</p>

6

<p>Xiggi, </p>

<p>I think you make a valid point; however, I wouldn't apply Pomona's situation to the entirety of the Claremont Consortium of colleges, given that their selectivity is significantly elevated by comparison to the other schools, save for HMC, which will have a very self-selecting pool of applicants. </p>

<p>My daughter considered Pomona to be her top choice for a long time before she opted elsewhere ED I (and was accepted). She spent more time there visiting than any other school and did everything from eating at the dining hall with current Pomona students (friends of the family) to participating in a student-run research project. We must have spoken with everybody in the Admissions office, plus professors in various academic departments. The conclusion I can make is that the students there are as happy as anywhere I've been -- and they REALLY want to be there. The ED program was intended for such students who want to show their exceptionally strong interest level in Pomona. This type of passion for Pomona did not and does not evidence itself with Scripps or Pitzer for sure, and neither do I get the same impression for applicants to CMC. </p>

<p>The net of Pomona's ED program is that they do it right, and they do it for the right reason. Combined with their outreach to further diversity (both in faculty and in students) and their generosity in need-based financial aid, the ED program is an effective one serving the right purpose. Finally, I don't believe that Pomona is "burdened" if you will with the bloated prestige factor (real or imagined) that many of the Ivies have to deal with. There are undoubtedly countless East Coast students, for example, who can name every Ivy League school but who may have never heard of Pomona. When and if they do discover Pomona and have the chance to visit, you can't blame them for liking what I consider to be one of the very best learning environments to be found anywhere in the country. If, after they've done all this homework, I think there should be an avenue available to those who want to say, "Yes, Pomona's for me, and that's why I'm applying ED!"</p>

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<p>NorCalDad, after a number of years reading the accounts of students and families on this board, I still believe that the results are mostly incomplete and hardly models of objectivity. I believe that you'll find many positive accounts of people dealing with Pomona's admission people and students, but an equal number of negative ones with families complaining about uncanny signs of a haughty and aloof attitude. Simple stated, depending on one's preferences and values, the reactions can be very variable. </p>

<p>FWIW, I would disagree with the statement that "This type of passion for Pomona did not and does not evidence itself with Scripps or Pitzer for sure, and neither do I get the same impression for applicants to CMC." but it is not impossible that we merely define passion differently. </p>

<p>Years ago, I made a conscious decision to avoid being a cheerleader for the school I attend. As a result, I very rarely post about it. One of the few things I do, however, gladly share is that the similarities and differences between the Claremont schools are often misunderstood ... and misreported, especially by Pomona's aficionados, including some who measure the school mostly by its participation in an exchange program. And, for what it worth, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find ANY difference between the ED numbers of Pomona and CMC. </p>

<p>But what do I know!</p>

8

<p>
[quote]
I could be way off base, but I don't get the sense that early apps are as big a thing out here in laid-back country, likely as a result of the UCs looming large. For many families, Berkeley or UCLA at $25k just feels better than any east coast college at $45k. In my S's competitive HS, ~15 kids applied early anywhere out of a class of 500+. Moroever, some of those early applicants were not even in the top 10 of the class, so they were just buying a early ticket to H, Y & M lottery, which they promptly lost.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Bluebayou, I think we here in California do enjoy the tremendous value proposition of a UC education, especially at the respected campuses of UCB, UCLA and UCSD. There’s no denying that paying $24K for the full Cost of Attendance compares favorably (financially) to the $45K at many other private schools, in-state or out-of-state. At my daughter’s school last year, over 100 students (out of almost 350) chose to enroll at one of the UC’s (e.g., 19 to UCB, 9 to UCLA and 8 to UCSD). I know that in many cases, these students could have opted for other schools, but again, there’s that value proposition. What could you do with the extra $80K at the end of 4 years?</p>

<p>On the other hand, at my daughter’s school last year, there were tons of ED/EA/SCEA applications. At least 3, perhaps 4, of the 7 students now attending Stanford were SCEA applicants; all 3 of those attending Penn were Early plan applicants; ditto for 3 at Brown, and 1 each at Harvard, Yale, MIT and Dartmouth. One each at Emory, Wellesley, Georgetown and Northwestern, plus 2 of 4 attending NYU were all Early applicants. I think that upwards of 75% of those who now attend UCB and UCLA were Early applicants at other schools, but were rejected. I would guess that more than half of those now attending elite colleges applied Early. The UC’s, notwithstanding their deserved reputation of excellence, were in effect fall-back options for many in my daughter’s graduating class. By and large, I do think that California kids heading back East do give it careful consideration and do not just frivolously apply ED willy-nilly to an East Coast school. I gather it may be partly due to the intentional investment of time/money to visit and be assured it is the right fit. It’s not like driving 3.5 hours from Scarsdale to Cambridge on a day trip.</p>

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<p>Xiggi,</p>

<p>Yes, what do you know??? And what do I or anybody else know? I’m glad you can acknowledge that we can define “passion” differently -- prolly the case. ;)</p>

<p>We do know what our impressions are, and indeed they are subjective. I first heard about the Claremont schools back in 1969 when one of my best friends began his undergraduate studies at HMC. Since then, I’ve kept tabs on the Claremont schools and certainly within recent years as my daughter had Pomona as her top choice for almost a year. I will stand on my comments about Scripps and Pitzer, and grant that CMC will garner a certain self-selecting applicant audience, especially with the appeal of their excellent programs in IR and Politics. In recent years, and I realize this is simply anecdotal information, I have not encountered a student from our H.S. who has CMC as their first choice school. My daughter has 3 friends now attending CMC, and none of them had CMC as their first choice. Both of her friends now attending Pomona were wildly enthusiastic about the school. These are just personal impressions, though, and of course, the numbers may corroborate your position. Ultimately, I subscribe to the notion that there is no one “best” college, and at the end of 4 years, the experience will have been positive for most students at any one of the excellent schools.</p>

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<p>More than half of the class at my kid's CA school apply EA/ED. Laid back is not how I would describe the college frenzy here.</p>

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<br>

<p>This is also true of plenty of people right here in California. Pomona College is commonly confused with Cal Poly Pomona - which is better known here in the state.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
According to Dean of Admissions Bruce Poch, the ED process is fair and does not discriminate against less polished, economically-disadvantaged candidates...</p>

<p>"The school’s financial aid office also guarantees to meet “100 percent of the demonstrated need of every admitted enrolling student.” This allows students, the school claims, to be assured they will be able to afford the school before committing.

[/quote]
That is obviously total b.s., especially in California with our inflated real estate values, and I am sure Poch knows it. Pomona, like every other elite private school uses "institutional methodology", which means that "need" is calculated by including home equity in the equation. Since in California it is very easy for a family to live in a tiny home with a high market value, it is next to impossible for a working class, homeowning family to have any clue what "demonstrated need" will mean. I mean, it is quite plausible that a family with a $60K net income might be living in a 1200 sq. ft, $700,000 home in a downscale neighborhood .... and not be able to afford to move even if they wanted to. Add in the private college's practice of counting the income of a noncustodial parent, even in the many cases when the ex-spouse is unlikely to contribute a dime, in a state with a very high divorce rate, .... and ED + financial aid is pretty much a joke.</p>

<p>I would note that the UCs give great financial aid. I really did get offers of close to 100% FAFSA EFC need, with very reasonable expectations as to loans and work study, for both my kids. So knowing that, it would be particularly risky for a the working-class, homeowning family to lock themselves in ED to a college like Pomona.</p>

<p>I am quite sure that Bruce Poch and every other college administrator knows that the ED applicant pool is far more affluent than the regular pool, and that ED serves a financial agenda as well as other factors. But if I were to impose a truth-in-advertising requirement on colleges, the first rule I would set is a requirement that the phrase "demonstrated need" be used only in conjunction with the FAFSA EFC -- let's see how many colleges say they meet "demonstrated need" in that case. And rule #2 would be that the colleges need to put on their web sites a financial aid calculator tailored to their own particular practices -- how about a web version of the actual software they use for their own calculations, with their own "professional judgment" policies factored in, for example? So that we divorced, homeowning, self-employed folks might have an actual clue as to where we stand?</p>

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<p>We were happy to discover that Pomona does not use the same "institutional methodology" that other schools (or LAC's) use to calculate financial need. Our California home equity excluded us from receiving offers of aid for our daughter from Wesleyan, Haverford, Carleton, Bowdoin, Reed, and others. Pomona's large endowment permits them to actually meet the financial needs of all applicants, as advertised.</p>

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<p>Are you saying that Pomona didn't consider your home equity at all? Or just that they gave you a better offer than teh other colleges you listed? Did Pomona's 100% need offer meet your FAFSA EFC?</p>

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<p>Calmom,</p>

<p>I think you are being unduly harsh on Bruce Poch and Pomona College. Notwithstanding that the ED/EA plans have tangible and intangible benefits to those more affluent families, Pomona is certainly more fair-minded and generous than the many other schools. Having done a considerable amount of research on Pomona’s admissions options and financial aid disposition, I happen to agree with Bruce Poch’s remarks, and it is certainly far from b.s.</p>

<p>The scenario you pose about California residents/homeowners is a common one. It’s true that many here in the state have had the good fortune of seeing their homes appreciate in value, although not all have necessarily seen their income levels rise as precipitously in order to be able to feasibly tap into the built-up equity AND also quality/make payments on equity loans. </p>

<p>Unlike most private schools, Pomona College is a part of the 568 Presidents’ Group that has adopted a “Consensus Methodology” that provides some relief from the above scenario. The 568 group is comprised of some of the nation’s best private colleges, including 6 of the 8 Ivy League Schools. (Notably, Harvard and Princeton are not part of the group, but that’s because they have such large endowments that they can actually be even MORE generous with their financial aid than any of the 568 group institutions.) One aspect of the Consensus Methodology places a cap on personal home equity based on income level. Thus a student whose family has resided in a home they have owned for years (and presumably whose equity has increased) but have a limited income will not be harshly penalized for this dilemma. </p>

<p>Though my daughter chose to attend another school (also a 568 group school), we looked carefully at the financial aid packages that were usually offered at Pomona. I was very comfortable that Pomona could be very generous, as they had demonstrated this in creditable fashion. It helps that they have accumulated a relatively large endowment, especially given the size of the student enrollment. </p>

<p>It’s unfair to Bruce Poch and Pomona to make generalizations lumping them in with other schools who do not strive to identify and fix inequities where they can. Financial aid is far from a perfect process, much like the situation with admissions, but credit should be given to those schools that recognize and are working toward its improvement. Ultimately, colleges such as Pomona will prove their merit by working individually with students to assure adequate financial aid based on demonstrated financial need. </p>

<p>Reference: The 568 Presidents’ Group: <a href="http://568group.org/about/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://568group.org/about/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>NorCalDad -- one other myth is that the 568 group's aid practices are necessarily better than other colleges. My daughter's worst so-called 100% need aid came from a 568 Group College (Chicago)-- the out-of-pocket for us there would have been almost $10,000 more than the college she is now attending, and the loan burden would have been double. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, students who go ED never get to see the awards from other colleges, so they may assume that their award was particularly good, especially if it is better than the online IM calculation at sites like finaid.org. But I found that every college that purported to offer my daughter need-based grant aid, with the sole exception of NYU, did better than the calculators would have predicted for IM methodology. But since I can compare awards, I now know that "100% need" is a very slippery proposition. I live in a house with $500K of equity, on paper. </p>

<p>I don't doubt that Pomona can be generous, but if you truly need the money to attend, you can't rely on "generousity" to make a binding commitment in advance. You need specifics. My daughter was very happy with her award from Barnard, but I know of RD students who were unable to attend because they didn't see their awards as adequate -- individual circumstances lead to great variations. The ex-spouse thing is a killer -- it seems that colleges uniformly refuse to discuss those numbers in any meaningful fashion with the custodial parent, so single parents are in a particularly precarious position -- and that represents a huge chunk of those with financial need. (I can assure you, I wouldn't be nearly as "needy" if I there was a second full-time income coming into my household -- its this problem of juggling full-time childraising responsibilities with full-time employment and trying to pay for everything that has been such a drag on my finances). </p>

<p>NorCalDad, I note that while you defend Pomona, it seems that your own daughter didn't go the ED route -- since she compared packages and chose to go elsewhere. The point isn't Pomona's financial aid practices in general, it is Poch's ludicrous claim that ED doesn't discriminate against families with economic limitations. Of course it does. I don't have any way to access the data, but am reasonably sure that if you looked at the average financial aid award for an ED admits compared with the average award for RD admits at just about any college -- or average family income -- you would see quite a discrepency. The exception might be for colleges that also offer fixed merit awards or athletic scholarships. (By "fixed" awards I mean a merit award that they commit to in advance, such as offering a 50% tuition scholarship to all NM Finalists).</p>

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<p>Calmom: "I don't doubt that Pomona can be generous, but if you truly need the money to attend, you can't rely on "generousity" to make a binding commitment in advance."</p>

<p>One solution is to apply ED+FA only at schools where there is no binding commitment. Reed operates this way; ED+FA admissions are offers which can be declined without penalty for financial reasons. Reed would like to be need blind, but the current endowment does not allow it.</p>

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<p>I thought that by definition, ED was a binding commitment. The Reed site says
[quote]
...if admitted to Reed, you will be expected to withdraw all applications to other institutions, and you may not initiate any new applications.

[/quote]
<a href="http://web.reed.edu/apply/applying_to_reed/freshmen_special.html#earlydecision%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.reed.edu/apply/applying_to_reed/freshmen_special.html#earlydecision&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Not a word about allowing people to withdraw without penalty if they don't like the size of their award.</p>

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<p>penalty...what would that be?</p>

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<p>The "penalty" is the possibility that one college may share information with others about ED students who have declined enrollment, and that high school gc's may withhold meaningful support or assistance to students who play that game. No college can force anyone to attend -- but they can refuse to admit students who have refused ED offers elsewhere.</p>