Potential Issue for Those Flying

College Majors Music Major
81

<p>SimpleLife,</p>

<p>Thank you for sharing an airline employees point of view. I truly do apprecitate it.</p>

<p>Here's my question for you, it is quite sincere and I hope you can give advice!</p>

<p>I, my colleagues, my children and my students as well as many other violinists frequently travel with violins valued at $20,000 and up - not just a beloved instrument needed at the other end of the journey, but a valuable one not easily replaced! Written airline policies regarding violins in overhead or under seats are not always clear stating something like "can be accomodated as space is available".</p>

<p>In practice, boarding with violin can be made difficult by airline personnel, but with tears, patience, supervisors, etc, the violin and owner are generally allowed to board and room is found in the overhead. My personal bottom line is to refuse to board if the violin doesn't remain in my hand - only had that situation once.</p>

<p>Can you advise on any way to avoid the potential challenge faced by violinists? Should I just tell everyone to buy a seat for the violin- even though it's not generally considered a large instrument? </p>

<p>By the way, I drive when ever possible these days, too much airline stress.</p>

82

<p>SimpleLife, I'll second fiddlestix, and offer that the rules are often capriciously applied by different airline personnel. Why is a violin or viola case accepted as carryon on a flight out, but denied on the return leg (same aircraft model, or even the same aircraft)?</p>

<p>"It won't fit" doesn't cut it. It did on the way out. ;)</p>

<p>My son is a performing professional, who travels by air for performances and auditions.</p>

<p>He's had polite requests to speak to a supervisor answered by employee's threats to call security or deny boarding. </p>

<p>Going through the airport with a high value instrument is a new adventure each time. Most are just asking for a clear policy, clearly stated and posted, and applied uniformly.</p>

<p>Stealing a line from the Godfather: "it's not personal, it's strictly business." :D</p>

83

<p>Thanks, SimpleLife. This has been helpful.</p>

84

<p>"Most are just asking for a clear policy, clearly stated and posted, and applied uniformly."</p>

<p>Hear, hear. To that I would add a policy that does not get changed more frequently than a set of strings, and is not subject to a schedule of fees and embargoes so complicated and extensive that it becomes impossible for the airline employees to apply correctly with any degree of certainty. The hardest thing to deal with is that no matter how hard you to try to conform to all the rules, no matter how early you show up, and no matter how unfailingly polite and calm you remain, there seems to be a different problem and a different set of fees each and every time.</p>

85

<p>fiddlestix and violadad, I would be happy to address your questions/concerns from this one employee's perspective...</p>

<p>I will agree that the rules are often capriciously applied by different airline personnel. Sometimes it's just that several employees will overlook certain rules (but they ARE rules that SHOULD be followed), and then you run into one who refuses to bend that rule. It's annoying as heck. Other times, it's not even a big-deal rule -- just a grumpy, ineffective employee. As you can probably guess, this arbitrary behavior seems to increase when times are hard. The passenger is the customer and deserves good service with a smile. Unfortunately, agents and flight attendants (the most typical points of contact for our passengers) are very overworked during an airline’s hard times. Our financially strapped companies have cut personnel to the bare bones. There's little room for flexibility during schedule disruptions when we're running so lean, and as you know schedule disruptions are (and always will) be a part of airline operations due to things like weather, air traffic control issues, and broken airplanes. So, particularly when there ARE schedule disruptions, the employees get burned out and disgruntled and it unfortunately shows in their customer service. Add to the shorted manpower -- management's choice, not the employee's -- the reduced pay and longer work hours, and you can see why you're getting still-unjustifiably grumpy customer service. It's not an excuse, just a reality.</p>

<p>Anyway, understanding that unpleasant reality is the key to getting cooperation from an employee regarding your instrument. Rule number one: Try not to discuss anything with the agents during the boarding process, if you can help it. Discuss your concerns BEFORE the boarding process.</p>

<p>The agents face stiff penalties from their supervisors if they close the aircraft door even seconds after scheduled departure time (not kidding, SECONDS). So, agents are often shortest with people during boarding. Carry-on baggage is a HUGE issue for flight attendants and agents. One of the biggest reasons for agents -- it hinders the boarding process. They would rather check your instrument right then and there than have you go down to the airplane, try to fit it somewhere, find that it doesn't fit, "swim upstream," and interrupt their boarding process to gatecheck it in the end. Their main motivation at this point: Be on time.</p>

<p>The best suggestion I can give you is to get to the airport early enough to handle your special circumstance. If your flight is not very full, you will very likely have no trouble at all. You can find out if your flight is full by either calling the airline on your way to the airport, asking at the ticket counter prior to going through security (which you’ll have to do anyway if you have checked baggage), or waiting to ask the agent at the departure gate. If it’s not very full, it’s unlikely that anybody will care about the size of your carry-on (assuming we’re talking about a violin or viola sized instrument here). You could choose not to mention it at all. The agents won’t be stressed or worried about an expeditious boarding process because there aren’t as many people to board, and there will be plenty of overhead room.</p>

<p>(When I say “show up at the gate early,” keep in mind that gate agents don’t usually arrive at the gate until around 45 minutes prior to the scheduled departure time on the major airlines – not prior to “boarding time” which is the time that is often printed on your boarding pass, but prior to departure time. The agents are off working other flights until that time – or they might be down on the jetbridge waiting to meet your plane as it arrives. If you’re flying a regional airline – the smaller planes – your agent might not get to your gate until 20-30 minutes prior. They’ll likely be in the general vicinity, but they might be working other flights right up until boarding time on your flight.)</p>

<p>So we’ve established this … if your flight is not very full, there will be more storage room on the airplane, and the agents will be in better, less-rushed moods. If your flight is somewhat full, or if you want to take no chances, try to be one of the first in line when the gate agent arrives. Wait until he/she acknowledges that he/she’s ready for you, and then walk up and politely let him/her know about your special, valuable carry-on. The agent will be much calmer and more amenable early-on in the check-in process.</p>

<p>Whenever I see an agent getting rudely carried away with a passenger over carry-on, it's on a relatively full flight during the boarding process. The agent stubbornly insists that the bag must fit in that silly little "sizer" thing. And that's their job -- but they CAN be flexible about it for special things like instruments. The key is to do everything in your power to make them want to help you – because they CAN win this one, unfortunately.</p>

<p>If the flight is absolutely jam packed though, you might be out of luck no matter how polite you are.</p>

<p>If you meet the agent early and detect a problem with him or her, there will be more time to speak to a supervisor prior to departure. “Customer service agents” or supervisors are LIKELY to grant you your wish if they possibly can – the key is allowing enough time for help prior to departure and remaining polite to the agent when you request one, as he/she will be the one you rely on to make the phone or radio call. (Another bad bit of reality – supervisors can be hard to come by – there are only so many of them and at the big airports they can be pretty far away when called, leaving you less time to “deal.”)</p>

<p>I wouldn’t own up to saying this, but you could consider “bribing” an agent with something as simple as a candy bar and a smile. I’ve seen it done! (No, I’m not an agent vying for candy!) The passenger greeted the normally grumpy agent with a simple, “This is for you” and a smile and then made their request – “Hey, I was wondering …” It worked! The request wasn’t outlandish or ridiculous – it wouldn’t work on an upgrade to first class, for instance. It was something simple – as is your request to try to find a space for your valuable instrument.</p>

<p>I can’t help you with the “most are just asking for a clear policy, clearly stated and posted, and applied uniformly” part of your problem or the fact that “written airline policies regarding violins in overhead or under seats are not always clear stating something like ‘can be accommodated as space is available.’” You’d need to take that up with the airline management – contact information can be found on their websites or in their inflight magazines. You already know what I know … that their policies are unlikely to change, especially since comparatively few fly with their instruments. (I see many instruments every day, but percentage-wise, the numbers are low.) I completely understand why you’re upset about it, but on the other hand, the airline’s goal is to fill up the passenger seats and then accommodate the carry-ons fairly, based on their passenger load. They can’t guarantee an overhead bin to anybody even though it makes sense that a very valuable instrument should have priority over two other people’s “mere” suitcases.</p>

<p>fiddlestix, I wouldn’t buy a seat for a violin or viola. You’re right, they’re not considered large instruments and they can easily fit in an overhead bin – or in the coat closet, standing tall, if there’s room. It’s just a matter of getting the right rapport with the right agent and/or flight attendant to make things work. Like you, I wouldn’t board an airplane unless my instrument could travel with me, in the cabin. That’s one more reason to book a flight that allows for a few back-up flights before your performance/audition.</p>

<p>If you begin to think you’re in a bind with somebody, I would definitely, politely, with no air of importance at all, mention that your instrument is very expensive and very susceptible to damage in cold temperatures and with heavy handling. Most people who don’t play have no idea how expensive or how climate-sensitive musical instruments are. Not that it’s right, but I would be very careful to show my genuine concern for the instrument without any sense of entitlement. It’s unfair, I know. I’ve just seen the occasional overworked, grumpy agent become more and more stubborn when they think their latest charge feels “entitled.” I hate that about my business, but it’s true at times.</p>

<p>Typically, if you get by the agent, you’ll get by the flight attendant. If not, try the same sweet-talk technique – you’re genuinely worried about the instrument; it’s very valuable and sensitive to climate changes; would you mind if I look for an empty overhead bin first and then I’ll be sure to call you if I can’t find one; would you be willing to check my travel partner’s bag in the place of my instrument? Etc.</p>

<p>Oh yeah, I didn’t mention – if you’re travelling with other people who have carry-on luggage, see if the person putting up a fight with you will agree to check your travel partner’s allotted carry-on baggage in place of your instrument. That will free up more space, you suggest.</p>

<p>I can’t really offer much more advice on how to handle the occasional agent or flight attendant who won’t see things your way. I wish I could. Like all people, airline folks can be arbitrary and unfair at times. The passenger has so little control over anything and often has so little knowledge about the process, so tensions tend to run high.</p>

<p>I, too, by the way, travel with kids who carry on violins and violas. So far, I haven’t had any problems … but I try to read the agent beforehand and apply my suck-up techniques when necessary. It’s too bad that it has to be done that way. And, I too, fiddlestix, drive whenever possible because of all the crazy airline stress! And I can fly for free when there’s a seat available! All I can say is, I feel your pain. I truly understand how frustrated people get with my line of work. It’s excruciatingly frustrating at times.</p>

86

<p>Simplelife,
Thanks for your input and perspective from the "other side of the counter." I agree that the crux of this discussion lies in the sentence posted by violadad:</p>

<p>"Going through the airport with a high value instrument is a new adventure each time. Most are just asking for a clear policy, clearly stated and posted, and applied uniformly."</p>

<p>The sad fact is that airlines, like all other businesses, are trying to stay profitable (or lessen the red ink) in a lousy economy. Fewer employees being asked to do more for less; fewer flights are more likely to be packed to the gills (those empty seats are fewer and farther between). Throw in stressed-out kids and parents trying to get to their auditions with a modicum of difficulty ... well, it's not an ideal situation from either side.</p>

<p>As for arriving early to plead your case with the agent before the counter is busy, all I can say is that we were there an hour before the flight and it didn't help. I wish I had known about the candy-bar strategy.</p>

87

<p>I know, Zappamom. The inconsistencies are extremely irritating. I'm sorry you didn't have better luck with Delta. The candy bar strategy surprised me! But then I thought about it a little more and realized, "How clever and simple!" And not guaranteed to work -- but if it doesn't, all you're out is a candy bar!</p>

<p>By the way, everybody, the few suggestions I offered were really meant for violin and viola-sized instruments -- instruments that are too large for the little "sizer" thingy, but WILL still fit in the overhead bins. The rest of you with larger instruments are probably simply out of luck. You may as well disregard my suggestions, because the employee's hands are pretty much tied if they can't legally accommodate your instrument in the cabin. There are plenty of good safety reasons behind most of the FAA's rules. Many of the rules follow "lessons learned" in other aircraft accidents.</p>

<p>At least at my airline, the probability of getting anything as large as a guitar on the airplane these days is slim! Showing up early won't help because there's simply no place to legally put it. There is only one place it would fit, other than a purchased seat, and that's the forward closet. But, as I said, it's usually full of crew bags and the flight attendants are not allowed to stack items for safety reasons dictated by the FAA.</p>

88

<p>Thank you, SimpleLife. I appreciate your thorough answers.</p>

<p>One more question, is there any standard policy for which section of the plane -rear, middle, front (excluding first and business class) is most often boarded first? I'm thinking that it might be wise to try for a seat in the earlier boarded sections. Or, should I just join the line as soon as boarding begins, whatever seat number I have?</p>

<p>I try to be a rule follower and don't move until my section is called - maybe that's why I'm ending up in the cruch with everyone else on the flight!</p>

89

<p>Hi again, fiddlestix. Smart question! I wish I had thought to address it in my earlier post!</p>

<p>My airline usually boards the rear of the airplane first, after first class and high-frequency travelers who have special early-boarding privileges. I don't know about the other airlines' policies, but it seems that most would do the same because it's designed to speed the boarding process. The people with carry-ons (and there are many these days) block the aisle while getting their stuff stowed, and everybody's stuck waiting in a long, slow line when people in the front board ahead of those in the back. The idea is, if the customers will follow the boarding order -- rear of the plane first, working towards the front -- the boarding will go more quickly.</p>

<p>You're smart to consider this! Yes, DO try to board earlier. It definitely helps! If you don't remember to book your seat in the first boarding group, you could ask for a different seat later on. Some airlines allow you to make the switch yourself on their websites or at their self-service check-in machines. Otherwise, you can simply ask the agent at check-in. If the flight is full, though, you may not be able to switch.</p>

<p>If you prefer to sit in the front, but the front boards last, you could still request to board with the first group called in coach. Some people just do this anyway, without asking, and get away with it. But nowadays, agents will often cull them out and direct them to board with their group number. Embarrassing. If you decide to follow my earlier advice and speak to the agent early-on in the check-in process, you might also ask if you could possibly board when the first coach group is called so that you can ensure a space for your special carry-on. There's nothing wrong with that at all.</p>

90

<br>


<br>

<p>Beloved...but VERY expensive to replace. We have two kids who travel with about $20,000 worth of instruments. They both have cases that FIT the carry on guidelines of ALL of the airlines AND their instruments are small and not overweight. STILL...they have been asked to stow the instruments at the gate. DD once checked her computer bag instead (the airline personnel would not let her ON the plane..at the gate with both her instrument case and her computer case) because the computer value is $1500...the instruments...$15,000.</p>

91

<p>SimpleLife,</p>

<p>Thanks for the perspective that you bring to this. Now that you have had a go at violins and violas, could you tell those traveling with larger instruments how to cope with the system?</p>

<p>Cellists can and frequently do buy a seat for their instruments. Bassists do not have that option on most airlines and, even when they do, it means buying a first class or business class seat for the instrument because it will not fit in coach. Generally, they have to ship their instruments in the cargo hold and that requires that the instrument be protected by a very large and very expensive flight case. We are talking about an irregularly-shaped object roughly 7 feet long, 3 feet wide and 2 feet deep. The older ones, when loaded, tended to come in at around 90 pounds. The newer ones, made of ultralight materials, manage to get just under the 70 pound limit imposed by many airlines these days.</p>

<p>Unlike those with smaller instruments, the bassist is not trying to get someone to bend the rules to allow the instrument in the overhead bin or first class closet. Not going to happen. End of discussion. Ideally, we would like to be able to close up the case ourselves after the security inspection and then get someone to wheel it around the automated baggage handling system, make sure it gets loaded on the plane and (dare we hope?) take 30 seconds to call us on our cell phone to let us know that has happened. For that level of service, we will gladly arrive two or three hours early, pay the oversize/overweight fees in addition to the checked baggage fees and offer a $20 tip (in addition to a candy bar if that would help) to the baggage handler at the back end of the deal.</p>

<p>We know to look for flights that have a good on-time history, preferably one starting the day at the airport of departure. We know to look for the least crowded flights. We know from hard experience to be aware of flights that are code shared, so that even when you have bought a ticket from airline A and have a flight number bearing their ID, you may actually have to follow the somewhat different rules of airline B, whose plane will actually be used for the flight. We know never to take the last flight out of anywhere. We know to minimize connections as much as possible, yet look to avoid the largest and busiest airports whenever possible, even if it means a few extra hours driving on each end.</p>

<p>We are used to being calm and polite, even when asked for the thousandth time if we really would not have preferred playing the flute. We are used to being pointed at, laughed at, and getting the bug-eyed "Are you out of your mind?" look from other passengers, but we like to avoid getting that treatment from the employees of the airlines and the airport. What more can we do to make your life easier and maximize the probability that we will be able to retrieve our instrument in good shape at our destination?</p>

92

<p>Thanks, SimpleLife! Vey practical advice. Duh, I wouldn't have thought to politely ask to board early! </p>

<p>I appreciate your contribution to the discussion!</p>

93

<p>I don't want to spoil this lovefest too much, but as the mother of a cellist, what burns me the most is that airlines are very good at figuring out how to accomodate oversized luggage when they want to, in order to lock in market share - for example, skis and golf bags. They clearly could accomodate the far less frequently encountered cello without charging the ridiculous oversize baggage fees they sometimes do charge.</p>

94

<p>Good point, memake. I flew to the Carolinas last year for a conference, and two of my colleagues' suitcases did not arrive, but 90% of the luggage on the carrousel was golf bags!</p>

95

<p>Sorry BassDad. It sounds like you really know your way around the airlines and have done everything you can to make things easier for yourself. I can't suggest anything other than what you've already mentioned. </p>

<p>Oh wait ... I do have one idea that might at least put your mind at ease once you're on board. You could do what many people who check pets do... You could ask the flight attendant (on the ground still) if he/she could check with the cockpit to verify that your bass was loaded on the airplane. Other cockpit crews might want to strangle me for suggesting this, because they're often quite busy at this time, and because they have little control over baggage loading. But, they do "have the technology" to find out if your bass made it.</p>

<p>The ground crew usually checks on with the cockpit about 5 or 10 minutes before departure. (With large cargo loads--usually associated with larger passenger loads, it will be much closer to departure time, because they're so busy loading.) At that time, the cockpit crew can ask if your bass made it. I'm sure the ground crew would recall loading it!</p>

<p>Also, if it's early enough before departure, or if you can catch the first officer (FO) in the gate area prior to his/her exterior preflight, he/she would probably be happy to check on it during the walkaround (exterior preflight inspection) or maybe even go back "downstairs" after the walkaround to personally ask the ground crew -- as long as there's still plenty of time before departure and there are no other pressing issues like maintenance or weather. The FO is the one wearing three stripes on the shirt epaulets or jacket sleeves and a hat with no “scrambled eggs” on the bill (blank bill).</p>

<p>Then, you would at least know it was on board and could rest easy if it was. The problem is, if it's not on board, there probably wouldn’t be time to recover before departure. The crew and/or agent will probably not delay for you – they’re instructed not to.</p>

<p>If the cockpit doesn't find out until the "5 prior" check-on, then you may not get your answer until taxi-out or even climb-out, because that last 5 minutes are really busy. There's may be no time to call back until later. If you haven't heard back by cruise, you could always ask the flight attendant again. He/she could call the cockpit again for an answer. Cruise is usually not a busy time for the cockpit.</p>

<p>Good news ... the cockpit crews aren't too often ornery about this kind of customer service, because they don't have the day to day grind of dealing with the people. No offense to any of the other fine employee groups, or to the passengers -- it's just human nature. In most cases, I think they'd be happy to help.</p>

<p>Of course, if the cockpit is handling some other problem at the time, or if they're using hand signals that day due to ground crew headset issues, or any other issues, your question would be last priority -- there's no guarantee of an answer. Pilots are supposed to ignore extraneous demands in favor of higher priority demands, and they will.</p>

96

<p>simplelife -- this is all so very helpful. thanks so much for taking the time to help us out with this thorny issue.</p>

<p>my son has a $20K violin which he loves. we have always said that he will get off a plane (or not board it) if they insist on checking the violin. we had a bad incident about 5 years ago and are now trained to be at the airport early, board as early as possible, etc. but it is really helpful to know how to handle the flight crew should a problem arise. i will pass your recommendations on to him as well.</p>

97

<p>Hi memake. Consider the lovefest spoiled. ;-) Yours is just the kind of comment I hear just about every day that leaves me scratching my head while smiling politely at the commenter.</p>

<p>Many people don’t know that airlines sell their cargo space as well as their seat space. We have contracts with all sorts of businesses. We ship for poultry farms, machine shops, retail businesses, the postal service (on and off), just about any type of business you can think of that doesn’t ship the wrong kinds or quantities of hazardous goods. I’ve seen caskets in the cargo bin, huge six foot by six foot crates of baby chicks, monkeys (!), tires, human organs, medical equipment, and I could go on. The prices on the airlines must be good enough for our customers, or they’d be using somebody else.</p>

<p>The airlines are in business to make money. That space sells. So why should they give it away for free? You wouldn’t go in a restaurant and demand a drink for free because you ordered a dinner. It is what it is. Just like any other business, they’re going to try to find the best strategy that generates the best profit while still pleasing and retaining the most customers.</p>

<p>Yes, the airlines have less stringent rules on skis and golf bags. Like you, I assume it’s because they have something to gain by it. They serve travelers going to travel destinations – and they’re going to want their skis and golf clubs when they get there. So it makes sense for the airlines to reserve a certain amount of space for those items in order to keep those customers coming in. Why is that bad? The shareholders and Wall Street would say it’s not. It makes good business sense. There’s less business sense in accommodating the occasional cello or bass for free – and if they do that, why not the occasional anything else for free? Where does one draw the line?</p>

<p>I don’t know how much it costs to ship your instrument on FedEx, UPS, or via the U.S. Mail. I assume it’s not any cheaper than the airlines, or this thread would have been shorter. You wouldn’t expect any of those businesses to share their cargo space and loading manpower for free, or for pennies, so why do people expect the airlines to share their space and manpower for free? If those places aren’t any cheaper, then maybe you could feel happier about the charges if you remember that large instruments take up valuable real estate in the cargo bins as well as extra manpower individually transporting your instrument from place to place (as opposed to using the cargo belt systems that often aren’t designed for such large items). Like anything else, you’re paying for a “product.”</p>

98

<p>Simplelife, a question: is it possible, if checking a string instrument, to request that it be put in a part of the cargo hold that is temperature controlled, such as in an area where pets are transported? </p>

<p>While a sturdy BAM case helps prevent impact damage, it doesn't protect against the temperature extremes that can really hurt an instrument.</p>

99

<p>Sorry, RunningtheBasses, I don't know much about that sort of thing. I would say it's always possible to request it, but I don't know if they can grant you your wish, even if they wanted to. I can tell you that, on the majors, the crew does not get involved in directing where the cargo is loaded. Neither does the gate agent. So none of them will be much help there.</p>

<p>There are probably people within each airline who could answer your question -- but I'm not one of them. It’s just not my area of expertise. Could you call the cargo operations portion of your most-used airline and ask them? I don't know if you can or not ... I've never tried (as a customer, that is)!</p>

<p>Good luck to all you big instrument owners! I can see by this thread that air transport is a major concern for you.</p>

100

<p>I am so glad all my S' auditions were w/in 9-10 hour drive this past fall and now. His horn fits quite nicely on the backseat of my car and is kept warm and safe. I an not a fan of long road trips, but it sure beats worrying about flying w/the darn thing.....</p>