Pre Med Biology Requirement

[MiamiDAP]

<p>Plum,
You cannot recommend based strictly on your experience. It depends more on UG program rather than Med. School requirement.
D. did not go to any kind of Ivy / Elite college, she craduated from the state public. In her program pre-med advisor strongly recommend NOT to skip the first Bio. After D. took it (she had 5 in her AP exam), she said that the class went way way beyond AP Bio, which was covered in the first 2 weeks.
Pre-meds at different UGs need to listen to recommendations of their respective pre-med advisors, not anybody outside. pre-med advisor at specific UG is familiar with thsi specific UG program. D. said that there is no way she would be able to be successful in the next Bio without taking the first one. She was NOT required to take the first class (it was called botany-microbiology-zoology and was taught by 3 profs in a classroom at the same time), but she said that listenning to her advisor saved her from big trouble later.
There is absolutely NO general rule here and it has nothing to do with Med. School but rather with the program sequence at your UG.</p>

[plumazul]

<p>

You ignored one important subtle distinction.</p>

<p>Many med schools don’t accept APs on their own. In other words, if your college gives you credit for the course you are skipping, there is no issue, but if the college doesn’t recognize the AP then there is a difference among schools in terms of how it’s handled.

</p>

<p>Thanks for clarifying my post. I didn’t actually “ignore” it since it was implicit. Yes, my UG accepts all AP credit (one of the major reasons I’m here instead of Duke or WUStL) If I had instead attended Duke (or any other school with a similar policy) my AP credits would have been capped at some arbitrary number. But which ones to use would have been my choice.</p>

[bluebayou]

<p>

I have recently had the pleasure to talk to admins around the country and this issue does come up (given my transcript). The unanimous opinion as expressed in the words of an Ivy Med School admin: “You did everything right”

</p>

<p>Your anecdote of 1 is just that, an anecdote. Moreover, it does not disprove the opposite (remember AP Stats?). In other words, it does not suggest that retaking an AP course is ‘not right’. There are a some good reasons why it might make sense to do so.</p>

<p>Of course, advanced coursework always looks better. But a 3.7+ is a 3.7+.</p>

<p>btw: Penn does not provide Gen Chem credit for an AP score alone. (Penn does offer an <100 Chem credit for graduation purposes, but such course does not fulfill the reqs of pre-healthy schools.)</p>

[plumazul]

<p>^ Did you somehow miss my link?</p>

<p>As for your strange reference to “AP Stats”, are you suggesting that anything presented here meets the prerequisites for some parametric statistical analysis? </p>

<p>Retaking AP courses is “not right” because it is a waste of time and money. It’s really that simple. If you have the credit or placement, I strongly suggest you use it.</p>

<p>

Of course, advanced coursework always looks better. But a 3.7+ is a 3.7+.

</p>

<p>This statement appears to be self-contradictory. </p>

<p>As for Penn, there are two ways to use an AP class, credit or placement. Does Penn offer neither for AP Chem? At my school, 8 credits are given for a 5 on the exam, but an Analytical Chem Lab class is still required. This curriculum was designed to satisfy the requirements of area professional and graduate schools (e.g. Hopkins, Penn)</p>

<p>I suggest you put aside your preconceived notions concerning this subject. Perhaps things have changed? I would still like to see your sources.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@bluebayou

While perhaps true, that is irrelevant since the OP’s kid attends a school that has a policy for the opposite. (UCSC has a similar policy, and will not allow one to reject the AP credit. Doesn’t make sense to me, but that is their policy.)

</p>

<p>Isn’t it UCSD and UCI that have these policies?</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.ucsd.edu/catalog/pdf/APC-chart.pdf[/url]”>http://www.ucsd.edu/catalog/pdf/APC-chart.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“UCI General Catalogue Archives”>http://www.editor.uci.edu/12-13/intro/intro.11a.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>As public schools where most students are subsidized with discounted in-state tuition, it makes sense from their point of view to get the students graduated as quickly as possible. Avoiding having students repeat AP credit helps that goal.</p>

<p>

@bluebayou

the problem is that CB does not allow score choice for AP reports. And most kids want to earn some credit, whether it be from AP Eng or AP lang, etc. In particular, if one does not present a satisfactory on the SAT-CR, Subject Test or AP score (3), UC will require an entering Frosh to take Entry Level Writing (formerly known as Subject A and derisively known as ‘Bonehead English’).

</p>

<p>Placing out of entry-level writing (formerly subject A) at UC means one of (a) 30 on ACT English/Writing, (b) 680 on SAT writing, (c) 3 on AP English, (d) 5 on IB HL English A: literature, (e) 6 on IB SL English A: literature, (f) C in non-remedial college English writing course, (g) passing score on UC analytical writing placement exam.</p>

<p><a href=“Entry Level Writing Requirement | University of California”>Entry Level Writing Requirement | University of California;

<p>In the 1980s, most entering frosh at Berkeley were placed into subject A courses; now, fewer than 10% are place into entry level writing courses, an indication of how much more selective the campus is now compare to then. The placement out of subject A was similar then, except that the SAT writing did not exist, but a 600 on its predecessor English language achievement test was an option (the score difference is probably due to the 1990s recentering).</p>

[i_wanna_be_Brown]

<p>I agree with plumazul on a theoretical level that people who have 5s on AP tests shouldn’t retake courses, but I don’t think anyone who could publish it has the data to support whether or not it’s better from a medical school admissions standpoint to take that path if doing so hurts your GPA.</p>

<p>It’s like how whenever a high schooler asks a college admissions person if it’s better to get an A in regular or a B in honors and they say that an A in honors is better. I don’t think we’ll ever really know the answer, especially since it would be impossible to tease it out from everything else.</p>

<p>bluebayou’s source is every AAMC table that shows that kids with higher GPAs are more likely to get in but obviously that doesn’t control for course rigor. Similarly, students who skip intro courses are probably more likely to be stronger and more motivated students and thus more likely to do well regardless of course work. Did they get in because of that or because the adcom liked that they skipped the courses? It may even vary by school. Maybe the adcom feels that intro bio and chem at duke and wustl are difficult enough courses to prove a student’s academic moxie while intro bio and chem at maryland are not? Maybe at some medical schools they care and at others they don’t. Too many questions, not enough inside knowledge to know the answers. </p>

<p>I can say that at my school’s adcom (I’m talking post interview), the coursework itself is not discussed at all, but I haven’t seen what it looks like when someone actually reads over an application and is making the decision about whether or not to interview (which is where, if it matters at all, it would matter).</p>

[texaspg]

<p>Which state in US is considered home for this kid? Will she be applying to med school in both countries?</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>It would clear up a lot of confusion on AP credit if medical schools would post on their web sites which advanced courses are acceptable substitutions if a student with AP credit chooses to go directly to more advanced courses.</p>

<p>For example, a medical school’s pre-med course list may specify “general biology with lab”. But more advanced biology courses are typically more specialized courses, rather than general courses; some have lab, some do not have lab, and some are only lab. Similarly, advanced chemistry and physics courses are also more specialized compared to “general chemistry with lab” or “general physics with lab”, and there can also be questions as to what kinds of writing intensive courses qualify if the student uses AP English credit to replace his/her school’s designated frosh English composition course. Calculus, at least, should not be too hard to substitute, since available more advanced courses include multivariable calculus and real analysis.</p>

[bluebayou]

<p>^^perhaps they are all just to different.</p>

<p>On Yale’s website, for example (in discussing AP Bio): </p>

<p>

Important exceptions to the above discussion are certain University of Texas schools. These programs require students to take a year of introductory biology, with lab, in college. Students may not substitute AP credit or more advanced biology courses.

</p>

<p>(And since plum referenced Yale Med), one of Yale’s undergrad majors, also refutes plum’s pov:</p>

<p>

The safest bet for a premedical MB&B student with AP physics credit is to take two semesters of introductory physics at Yale, with labs, or to take two semesters of more advanced physics courses, with labs.

</p>

<p>Notice that Y does not indicate that it is a “waste of time and money” to retake AP Physics. Nor does this major necessarily advise taking the next level up – enabling personal choice.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>Regarding physics, most pre-meds choose a less rigorous physics for biology majors sequence, rather than a more rigorous physics for physics majors sequence. The physics for biology majors sequence is typically a terminal sequence with no more advanced courses, so a student with AP physics C credit who does not want to skip to advanced physics courses for physics majors (if allowed), or a student with AP physics B/1/2 credit, has no option besides duplicating his/her AP physics credit for pre-med purposes if any potential medical school does not accept AP physics credit.</p>

[bluebayou]

<p>

Isn’t it UCSD and UCI that have these policies?

</p>

<p>If I am reading correctly, UCSB has also adopted the same policy: “You may not enroll…”</p>

<p>[UC</a> Santa Barbara General Catalog - Advanced Placement Credit and Chart](<a href=“http://my.sa.ucsb.edu/catalog/future/UndergraduateEducation/APCreditandChart.aspx]UC”>http://my.sa.ucsb.edu/catalog/future/UndergraduateEducation/APCreditandChart.aspx)</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>UCSB’s policy may be less of an issue to pre-meds, since its AP biology, chemistry, and physics B equivalencies are for non-major courses, not the ones for biology majors and pre-meds.</p>

<p>It does give subject credit for biology major / pre-med physics for AP physics C, so a pre-med bringing in AP physics C credit but wanting to apply to medical schools that do not accept AP credit may have to take the physics courses for physics majors.</p>