Pre-Med Competition: Experiences?

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
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<p>My younger sister is interested in going to medical school and will be a pre-med student (she's thinking of majoring in bio...but open to other majors too) next year to start college and I'm wondering if the myths/rumors/stories you sometimes hear about the pre-med competition and tough curved grading is true?</p>

<p>She's smart (top of her high school class), but still very worried about the competition and atmosphere of pre-med classes. For those who've gone through the pre-med path, how was the experience at your university (if you don't mind, it'd be great to know the school or at least details about it...size...location...demographics, etc..)? </p>

<p>Was there ever cutthroat competition where people were either unfriendly and/or unhelpful? Was there cheating? Was it very stressful and intense? </p>

<p>Or perhaps was the opposite true and the pre-med program was friendly and smooth sailing? </p>

<p>What tips, if any, would you give to someone who really wants to become a doctor and do well in her pre-med classes in the face of such possible harsh competition? The competition aspect in the part she's most worried about, because her nature is more fun loving. Thanks for your thoughts and input!!!</p>

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<p>i think there are some schools known as “premed” schools that are known as cutthroat… that applies to both competitive students and a premed advising situation that tries to weed out its weaker students. However, as you can major in anything as a pre-med and basically go to any school in order to apply to med school…it doesnt have to be that way. If your sister majors in something she loves at a school she loves, hopefully she will be fine…i dont think it is necessary to go to one of the schools that is known for being tough on pre meds.</p>

<p>my S2 hasnt experienced any competition re premed…the students on that track, all take different majors. His professors are accessible, want their students to succeed. Premed advising is primarily geared towards making you the best applicant you can be…not to try to weed you out. His school is a tier one research university (UAB) and home of a top medical school, so profs also welcome students that want to do research. there are 7 hospitals around the campus so lots of opportunity to shadow and volunteer.</p>

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<p>When some people post about top schools that seem to have a LOT of super high-achieving pre-med students, there probably is a cut-throat atmosphere since the Pre-med Pre-reqs are typically weeder classes and only an X% are going to be given A’s.</p>

<p>However, at schools where there is a good mix of STEM students following other career paths (eng’g, science research, etc), then those same pre-med pre-reqs will have a good number of students who aren’t as grade hungry…i.e. engineering students who are perfectly fine with a B or A- in Gen Chem. </p>

<p>Since I have nearly 50 nieces and nephews (wow!), and most are in the 16 -25 year age group. I have seen a wide variety of college/grad school experiences. Nearly all have been some kind of STEM major, and some are pre-med. </p>

<p>My niece found that UCSB science classes were filled with pre-meds and there were gunners in those classes. She was sabotaged in one of her lab classes. </p>

<p>My nephew is pre-med at UCLA, but I have a feeling he’ll end up changing his career path because the competition there is just too intense. He’s a very good student, but he’s not one of those straight A/near perfect SAT types. He just completed frosh year, and I would be surprised if he ends up with the needed GPA to be competitive for Calif med schools. </p>

<p>My nephew at Vandy has found it to be very intense…lots of pre-meds there. He was pre-med ChemE, but has decided to go into engineering as a profession. </p>

<p>My younger son is pre-med at the University of Alabama. He’s in the med school app cycle right now. His major is Chemical Engineering. He has a 4.0 BCMP and a 3.9 cum GPA (A- in a Spanish class). He has not found his school to be filled with the gunner/cut-throat types. As a matter of fact, when he and other med school applicants got together to critique each other’s Personal Statements, he received very helpful suggestions, which would not likely have happened if each person had had a “every man out for himself” attitude. They don’t have the attitude of: “gee, if I help him/her, then they might get my spot”. They all want to help each other get in. </p>

<p>Recently, a Yale grad said that his school has a very high number of pre-meds. The number he mentioned seemed really high, but may be true. Although Yale is known for grade inflation, I don’t know if that extends to the pre-med pre-req classes. </p>

<p>The fact is that if you’re attending a school that has science classes filled with students who are under intense pressure (either by their parents or self-imposed) to get straight As, be the best, etc, getting the best GPA might be a challenge. </p>

<p>I would not recommend a pre-med student attend a top school if his stats were in the middle quartiles. I think a student improves his chances for the best grades if he attends a school where his stats are well-within the top quartile…at least the top 10% of the school.</p>

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<p>That’s both an informative and sobering perspective. Thank you for that. </p>

<p>It’ll definitely be something to think about strategically. My sister is already set for her freshman year for where to attend, but she may want to consider transferring if it gets too hard and perhaps attend an “easier” school. </p>

<p>That really STINKS from what you’ve written that pre-med students who may otherwise have gotten good enough grades AT ANOTHER (less competitive) SCHOOL end up not making the grades for medicine when it is, in fact, the rigor of their program and curved competitive grading instead of their intelligence that is in play. </p>

<p>I actually HAVE known of one acquaintance who transferred to a diff./less competitive school in order to get high enough grades for medicine. She’s doing OK now overseas in medical school. Her grades even after transferring were averaged out to be borderline and so she’s attendingn med school overseas. </p>

<p>I guess these are very very very tough decisions. </p>

<p>The benefit of attending a good school is that even if you don’t do pre-med the name of your good school will open up other options. Of course you may still make it too…but just in case you at least will have a good education and a good network. Whereas if you attend a lower ranked school and also DON’T make it into medical school or decide you want to do something else, then you may be stuck at your lower ranked school (with the bad pre-med grades) and then get a double WHAMMY. You don’t get medical school AND you don’t get a good college name. </p>

<p>Still…if one could simply PREDICT their grades with high degree of accuracy at an “easier” school and have a very good idea they’d be able to get into med school with those grades from that easier school, then that migth be well worth the risk. If ONLY we could know for sure. </p>

<p>I guess it’s pretty TOUGH! The pre-med track really does seem like a pressure cooker. Thanks for the perspective, though. Very helpful to consider.</p>

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<p>just because a school isnt known for being cutthroat doesnt mean its “easier”. </p>

<p>other things to consider when choosing a school in my opinion … would you do better with semesters or quarters? does the school use a plus minus grading system (ie an 82 might be a 2.67 vs a school that doesnt use plus minus and 82 is a 3.0) of course that can also work against you (ie an 89 is a 3.27 vs a 3.0). What size are the classes, teacher/student ration etc. </p>

<p>you are not doomed for life if you choose a lesser known school…especially if planning on some kind of grad school… there are imo only a few instances when where you went to undergrad will make a huge difference to where you end up.</p>

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<p>I have 2 pre-meds: one attended a mid-ranked large state flagship (she’s now in med school) and the other a top 30 research U known for its pre-med program (she’s doing 2 years of clinical research prior to applying). While both were good students, neither were absolutely top of their classes in high school. (Top 15%–yes, valedictorian–no). Both had ACT/SAT scores that placed then in top quartile of their respective schools.</p>

<p>D1 at state flagship was not a typical pre-med (physics & math major), but D2 (bio & math major) at the pre med school was. Neither girl called the competition “cut-throat”, i.e. no sabotaging, no ripping pages out of reference books (both of which I’d seen happen elsewhere when I was a student). But the competition was intense. All science classes “weed”–use strict curves to ‘encourage’ weaker students to find other career paths. Note this was just as true for physics and mathematics as it was for the bio majors. (Physicists in particular have a reputation for eating their own young–i.e. extremely tough undergrad coursework that forces most wannbes out of the program. D1’s class started out with almost 120 physics majors as sophs; her class graduated 14. Which, btw, is pretty typical in physics.)</p>

<p>All science-based majors are going to be competitive in the sense that there are lots of student all chasing a limited number of As. It’s just the way it is. And if one chooses to pursue a life as a research scientist–that’s the way it’ll be for the rest of your career.(Married to a research physicist for 30+ years. BTDT.) One will always be competing for limited resources–funding, equipment, lab space…</p>

<p>I think to be a successful pre-med, one needs alot of grit, persistence, self-discipline, a willingness to seek help when needed and a willingness to go above and beyond the bare minimums required for a class. A successful pre med is challenged by competition but not intimidated by it. (Lots of head games among pre-meds, intentional and not. You need to be self-confident and to believe in your own ability or you will get ground down.)</p>

<p>BTW, I don’t want you to think pre-med is one big grind. Both girls had active social lives. One was very active in her sorority. For both the phrase:“Work hard, play hard” comes to mind. Neither spent Friday nights languishing in the library. (Sunday all day probably. But not Friday night.)</p>

<p>RE: cheating. Homework copying–yes, esp among certain segments, but cheating on exams and papers–not really. An academic discipline record will get you blackballed from ever getting accepted to medical school. Lots more cheating among math majors (certain subgroups) than among pre-meds.</p>

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<p>well said wowmom. same for my son.</p>

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<p>I don’t think pre-med pre-reqs are “easier” at any good school. Schools that may not be ranked as high will still have a lot of very smart kids in the STEM majors, which are typically the ones in the pre-med pre-req classes. </p>

<p>frankly, at all schools it can largely depend on the profs you get for certain classes…and there are great profs and bad profs everywhere. :(</p>

<p>My Vandy nephew says that he lucked out by getting the great OChem prof, but his roomie got the horrid one and his grade reflected that. It’s a myth that the top schools have all great teaching profs. NO…absolutly not true. Being a great teacher is not a req’t to be a prof at a top school. Not at all.</p>

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<p>It’s really tough to get into medical school; you’ve got to have good grades, have a solid MCAT score, show you’ve got good ECs, etc-but it can be done. At this point, the best thing to do is find a college that fits best, and find a major you enjoy. It’s been argued ad nauseum if certain schools are better for pre-med, whether it’s better to attend an “easier” school or take an “easier” major; I’m not going to enter that debate. The bottom line is that no matter what the school or what the major, you’ve got to have good grades, a good MCAT score, good ECs, etc. The best plan is to focus on yourself.
And a final note on competition-it’s an incredibly competitive process to get accepted, so yes, you’re going to be dealing with competitive people. Some will be pleasant, some won’t. That’s human nature. But the entire process is competitive, so it’s best not to focus on the behavior of others(which you can’t control), and instead focus on what you control-your classes, your ECs, and all the other things that will go into your application package. It can be a grind-but always remember, it can be done. Good luck.</p>

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<p>Top STEM schools hire profs for their research and the $$ their research bring to the school, not their teaching ability… (BT, seen it waaayyyyy too many times to count.)</p>

<p>(And even LACs which are for their supposedly superior teaching can have profs who have ‘retired in place’ and are teaching when they really shouldn’t be. Or new profs who come with terrific recs, but are duds in the classroom.)</p>

<p>And an ‘easier’ school really might not be. D1’s state school could be considered ‘easier’ than D2’s research U, but the relative difficulty of getting an A was about the same. D1’s Ochem gave out more As, but there were a whole lot more kids in the class too. (500 students and ~40 As. vs 200 students and ~30 As.)</p>

<p>And profs see lots of students over the many years of their careers and are being asked to evaluate students not just relative to their peers in the that particular class, but also relative to every student they’ve ever taught.</p>

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<p>I went to my state flagship (in the midwest) and currently attend the same university as a med student.</p>

<p>My university is ranked on all that stuff about “party schools” and “great Greek life” and “attractive students” and whatever run-of-the-mill stereotypes go with big state universities. And it is totally fine with me that all of that stuff is true. I’m pretty sure it helped make undergrad a ton of fun! Pretty much anyone who goes to my university can find a way to graduate with a degree. There are tons of people studying stereotypically “easy” things, like business or communications or psychology or education (not trying to offend! Not saying they’re useless! Not saying these really are easy! Just saying that most people, in my experience, perceive them as easy.)</p>

<p>BUT what the average person does at your school doesn’t really matter, because a premed who has a reasonable shot at going to med school has to be far from an average student. They have to be some of the best students out there–they must excel in the most difficult classes on campus, they must do a boat load of other activities, they must manage their time impeccably, etc.</p>

<p>Out of my best friends from undergrad, two of us are in med school and the other two are working on PhDs. The four of us took most of our science classes together. One of them is getting his PhD in organic chemistry and is currently the orgo TA at an elite school. We were talking about the differences between state flagship and elite school, and what we decided is that the range of students/abilities at state schools is pretty huge–which makes sense, since the state flagship’s responsibility is to educate many students with different strengths from around the sate. At his elite school, the range of abilities is narrower–many of the students are very smart. In his experience, the top students from state school and the top students from elite schools are comparable. </p>

<p>Extrapolate that out to med school, and it makes sense; you see students from all types of schools at all med schools. Does that mean all med schools are homogeneous? Well, no. And certainly some schools have preferences for certain students–but none of that really matters, because all US MD schools are as fantastic as they are competitive. So the trick isn’t necessarily going to the elite school (no guarantee you’ll be the top) or going to the state school (because it’s not necessarily easier/you won’t necessarily have a higher GPA). The trick is being among the top students at whatever school you choose, and hopefully you choose your school because it’s the best for you. I promise you, if it were as easy to game the system as always choosing to go to the state school because that means you’ll get the higher GPA, enrollment at state schools would be through the roof!</p>

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<p>This is just a quick reply (haven’t had time yet to digest the other comments - still reading!) to the line of thought that “easier” or “lower ranked” schools will make it easier to inflate a GPA that is med school worthy…</p>

<p>For those who argue that pre-med is difficult in general and that it’ll be tough anywhere…I certainly can understand and agree with that. The required coursework and required high grades would certainly support that notion. </p>

<p>However, I guess I do see some strategic work at play here…I’m NOT endorsing this strategy at all necessarily (I don’t know what I’d do, b/c thankfully I’m not pre-med, but my sister is). …I’m just saying that pre-med at Princeton…or MIT…or Carnegie Mellon or Berkeley, for example, may be MUCH MUCH harder than at Cal State Long Beach. </p>

<p>It’s not to put down CSULB in any way, but I think one should definitely recognize the difference in expectations from say an Intro to Physics class at MIT or Berkeley than the same class at CSULB. The greater rigor and likely greater competition at a “top” school in these classes would seem to make it that much more difficult to pull out the required grades for medical school. …And so to me that DOES seem like a LEGITIMATE issue and possibly warrants a strategic decision. </p>

<p>If you could predict with high accuracy that you would have VERY high grades in pre-med - the type that would give you a very high shot at attendingn med school - at a LOWER RANKED school, but you could NOT predict with that same confidence and accuracy of getting those high pre-med grades at a VERY TOUGH and HIGH ranked school…then would you strategically go with the “easier” school? </p>

<p>That’s really a tough, yet interesting question to me. That was all I was getting at when thinking about this. :slight_smile: </p>

<p>I’m not saying I have the right answers at all…but just throwing that out there.</p>

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<p>Right–I see your line of thinking and have heard it many times. And what I was trying to point out is that I don’t agree with the assumption that you could predict with high accuracy that you would have VERY high grades in premed…at a LOWER RANKED school. The reason is that even at those lower ranked schools, the premed prereq classes are tough and the competition is stronger than one might expect. Electrophilic aromatic substitution is the same concept whether it’s taught at CUSLB or at MIT. TCA always has the same number of steps and enzymes. Force is always mass times acceleration. You get the picture. The idea that premed is easier at a lower ranked school feels intuitively correct, and probably makes sense to students who attend those higher ranked schools, but make no mistake–the competition is fierce among top students regardless of the rank of the school, and coming out with top grades is not a walk in the park. Which brings me back to my original point–the best school for you is whatever you determine it to be, and you should always be striving to be a top student if you’re serious about going to med school.</p>

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<p>Based on my (fact-free) observations, and what I have found written in local college newspapers, in general, approximately 25% of all incoming Frosh are pre-health. At colleges like Hopkins, it is closer to a third of the matriculating Frosh. </p>

<p>Every college has a lot of premeds, most of which never get to the application stage.</p>

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<p>That’s why the mcat exists! </p>

<p>But, fwiw, those top schools also award more A’s than The Beach. Heck, Cal & UCLA award more A’s (in %) than Riverside and Merced. Not saying it’s a total equalizer – not even close, but the average gpa for a popular premed major at Cal is a 3.42; not too shabby for a large public. OTOH, Cal has more high scoring (SAT) students than Harvard.</p>

<p>btw: Yale is closer to a 3.6, and Brown is higher than Y.</p>

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<p>[The</a> cutthroat pre-med culture needs to change](<a href=“http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2012/04/cutthroat-premed-culture-change.html]The”>http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2012/04/cutthroat-premed-culture-change.html)</p>

<p>WOWOWOWOWOW! Slashing the tires of the best student in class??? That’s sad…</p>

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<p>as a commenter in that kevinMD article said, why are we grading on a curve? If the school doesn’t curve the nastiness drops precipitously.</p>

<p>While I fully agree with your first post kristin (that the difference between high and low ranked schools is who makes up the middle and bottom of the class, not the top of the class), I disagree with your assertion that science classes inherently have less flexibility in difficulty from institution to institution. To take my orgo class as an example, we always had 3 sections on our exams. Section A was full of straight forward questions testing random facts (e.g. what is electrophilic aromatic substitution). Section B was application of those facts to basic problems. Section C was application of those facts to advanced problems (e.g. draw out each step, including reagents, in the synthesis of Y from X where neither compound had been seen before). The MCAT was mostly on par with section A and maybe some section B problems, but nothing even remotely close to the difficulty of section C. My friends at other schools and students from other schools that I tutored did not experience problems like section C, and that is where the difference in science education can differ from one school to the next. Whether or not the top students are equivalent is irrelevant if the courses aren’t, and just because the facts are the same, the level of detail, the volume, and the way those facts are tested can yield completely different courses.</p>

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<p>

I have not seen any data on the average GPA at Yale since 2008. Also, the reported GPA was not “pre-med” specific. There may be some grade inflation there, but I can speak from my son’s experience it is NOT in the “pre-med” area, at least not in Biology. Lastly, the reported GPA in 2008 was 3.51, not close to 3.6. ;)</p>

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<p>Good point, iwannabebrown. I elected to take honors organic chemistry at my school–rumored to be the most difficult course for premeds–and we actually did cover quite a bit of synthesis. In fact, my prof made it a point to always push us a little further and to not test us on material we already knew. It sounds like the experience was similar.</p>

<p>And, while I did find a few other upper-level science classes of similar difficulty, certainly not all of them were as difficult. So, if all (or even most) science courses at your school were analogous to your orgo experience, then I certainly agree that the courses probably aren’t comparable.</p>

<p>But regardless, I still think my conclusion is accurate–you should choose the best school for you, and you should aim to be among the top students there.</p>

19

<p>Also, community college classes REALLY are often easier than their college counterparts. </p>

<p>I had a friend attend a CA community college and rock out a good GPA and transfer to Berkeley where he took easy classes in a humanities major. (Note: All his “harder” science, math, etc. general education requirements were taken at the community college level, so it was mostly only in-major classes he took at Cal). </p>

<p>Then the combined GPA at Berkeley and community college was very high and he got into a top Ph.D. program where he’s STRUGGLING majorly and has said he felt unprepared. He’s already two years over the expected completion time and still hasn’t finished. </p>

<p>…These community college classes are often not of the same quality as regular college classes and that can inflate GPA too. </p>

<p>The worst is if it hurts someone in the long run, b/c they never really were challenged and never figured out HOW to learn and push through a tough challenge and struggle later in life…be it in med school …or Ph.D. schooling, etc. </p>

<p>I feel like just as there is standardization in high school tests and teaching that college should have some standardization too. </p>

<p>But…then…some students at “easier” schools might not make it and drop out and the colleges may lose money…well in theory that is…I’m speculating…although those same students may also rise to the challenge and do OK or very well too. …Hard to tell for sure.</p>