Pre-Med (MCB) vs. switching to EECS

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of California - Berkeley
1

<p>Hello! </p>

<p>I'm a fall extension at Cal right now, and I'd really appreciate anyone's input on this decision. I came into Cal with a bio major in mind. I always thought that I'd pursue a career in medicine. However, I also have great interest in computers and everything that the internet does. The fact that I could contribute in something like that really excites me. I figured that our dependency on computers is only going to increase, it would have a great career prospect in the future, but I don't really know what someone does in that field either. Is it something like sitting behind a monitor all day? </p>

<p>My problem is that I'm in the L&S college and I'd have to try and switch to CoE if at all possible. I like the feeling of helping others, but the obstacles of pursuing a career in medicine is also really nerve-wrecking. I scored a 5 on my AP bio and a 4 on my AP Chem tests, but my confidnece in my math is not as strong. I also scored a 4 on AP Calc. </p>

<p>I have a lot of preconceptions about these two fields, and I know they could be very naive. Could any just give me a little input about their own experiences and possibly what might be the wisest decision for me?</p>

2

<p>Molecular biology degrees are pretty meaningless these days. Too many people have them, and they don't particularly train you well for rewarding work.</p>

<p>Medicine is largely a service-type job, so to be a good fit, you need to have more than just an interest in science. It's also very surface discipline, so you probably won't feel fulfilled if you really want to understand the science behind natural phenomena. </p>

<p>When it comes down to the life sciences, the nitty gritty work is extending beyond the empirical nature of biology into the quantitative sciences - chemistry, physics, etc. The academic part of training in biology and medicine is not much more than the memorization of some terms and concepts, so in case med school doesn't pan out, you might be stuck in an awkward position with a low ceiling for advancement. Nursing is a pretty good safety though.</p>

<p>The field sciences are not a bad choice right now. Pay is better than for lab techs with bench science backgrounds and degrees, work is arguably more stimulating, and coursework is easier.</p>

<p>Engineering is the safest major if you are pursuing a technical job after college. It's easy to train "down" with an engineering background, but coursework will probably be harder. </p>

<p>/3rd year MCB/Chem major</p>

3

<p>2 thoughts come to mind:</p>

<h1>1) You don't actually need a EECS/CS degree to pursue a career in the computer industry, particularly on the software side. Software is one of the most open and flexible industries in the world as far as taking in people who do not have the "proper" major, or heck, didn't even graduate from college at all (or sometimes even high school). Many of the best developers that I know don't have EECS/CS degrees. Instead, they just picked up software skills on the side, largely as a hobby, and they became so good at doing it that they got a job that was sometimes better than the jobs obtained by some of the actual EECS/CS majors.</h1>

<p>To get a really good job in software, you just have to know a particular set of software skills that happens to be 'hot'. Obviously I don't know what's going to be hot in 4 years when you're going to graduate, but right now, the hot skills are the so-called 'rich Internet application' suite of software skills, i.e. AJAX, openLaszlo, Ruby on Rails, PHP, and the like. Frankly speaking, it's really not that hard to learn these skills, for example, I would say that somebody who is dedicated and had nothing else to do could probably learn these skills over, say, one summer just by reading books (i.e. "Teach Yourself Ruby in 21 days") and then just practicing by building a bunch of web applications for fun. </p>

<p>While getting a CS/EECS degree will surely make you a better developer, it is also a quite slow and painful way to go about doing so because those programs force you to learn a lot of things that you don't really need to know if you just want to be a developer. For example, you don't really need to know how digital switch logic actually works. You don't really need to know how hardware clocking works. You don't really need to know how to design memory caches. Now, is it nice to know how that stuff works? Sure. But, honestly, you don't really need to know that. Many of the best developers that I know don't understand any of that stuff, and they don't care because they never need to know it. </p>

<h1>2) Now that CS has been uncapped, you can probably get away with just majoring in that (within L&S) without ever needing to switch to the CoE. That is, of course, unless you are really interested in the hardware aspect of EECS, but you can probably take care of that just by taking some EE courses, or potentially by majoring in physics. True, switching to EECS would be best, but not being able to do so is not fatal by any means.</h1>

4

<p>Medical school is iffy for all, only about half of all applicants get in, and many have to apply 2nd & 3rd times and many take a post grad year to show commitment, learn more about research, bump a GPA etc.</p>

<p>You do not have to be any particular major to get into med school, you could pursue your CoE/CS major and take the required courses (1 year bio, 2 years chem, 1 year physics, 1 year math) in your breadth and still get in. Some people feel there are so many science majors that a non science major can get you a second look just because you are interesting and different than the usual pile of apps.</p>

<p>A bio major at Cal does not promise a high GPA, engineering in most schools has a reputation of being a GPA killer. If you do not have at least a 3.5ish GPA med school is going to be a tough goal.</p>

<p>You should not pursue it unless you really want it, but you cannot find out if you really want it until you have taken the prereqs, done some physician shadowing, maybe some research, etc. Maybe you could go IB instead of MCB, fewer "gunner" premeds and more flexibility to pursue areas of interest to you.</p>

<p>If you do pursue sciences, be careful about using your AP units, they don't count for most medical school apps. And if you use them to bump you to a harder class, you may end up with a lower grade!</p>

5

<p>MCB is hardest bio major (ignoring chem bio). Stay away from it if you 'just want' a bio major. Only major in MCB if you love the emphases. If you just like bio in general, stay away from MCB.</p>

6

<p>Well for MCB, isn't it mainly emphasizing the molecular aspect of the subject? In that case, for med-school isn't that an advantage? IB seems to much more broad in terms of biology. </p>

<p>Would it be wise to just take a CS course just to see if I will truly enjoy is that wasting my time? </p>

<p>And thank you to all those replied.</p>

7

<p>You can get in CS in LS. I think this may be better for you instead of getting in EECS (tougher competition).</p>

<p>
[quote]
The Computer Science (CS) major is housed in the College of Letters and Science and culminates in a Bachelor's of Arts degree. The CS program requires a greater number of non-technical, or breadth courses, than the EECS program. </p>

<p>Freshman applicants interested in the Computer Science major should apply to the College of Letters and Science undeclared. Admitted freshmen are encouraged to satisfy major prerequisites for any major, along with breadth requirements during their first two years at Berkeley. Undeclared students should "declare" their majors by the end of their sophomore year or during the first semester of their junior year.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Computer</a> Science - Two Ways | EECS at UC Berkeley</p>

8

<p>^Krize you are mistaken. Physiology and Human Biology are the most important for medical school. The original Berkeley physiology department was merged into IB, not into MCB.</p>

<p>IB is a general biology major, but it has a large number of available courses. You choose six of your six courses, unlike MCB where you generally only pick a couple.
IB is only as broad as you make it.
Undergraduate</a> Courses</p>

<p>You can take your one Area 1 course and one genetics course, and then all the rest of your courses (your Area 2, 3, and lec/lab courses) can come out of Areas 2 and 3 (2 = Physiology/Structure/Biomechanics; 3 = Human Biology & Health Sciences)</p>

<p>IB teaches physiology and human biology. At least two of those courses are required for all IB majors.</p>

<p>In MCB, you are not required to take any physiology. There are some they offer you to take for your electives, but most of them are IB area 2 and 3 courses. The problem with this is, you won't be able to get into you required lab. I've even heard of graduating MCB seniors not being able to get IB 132L (Human/Mammalian Physiology Lab). IB students can only take IB courses for their major, so the IB department reserves large numbers of lecture seats for declared IB students, and pretty much whole labs for them too.</p>

<p>Summer 09, I will have to come back so I can declare so that I will be able to get into IB 148 in Fall 09</p>

9

<p>Could anybody tell me where I could find information of actually trying to switch into CoE? Right now I am L&S and I would like to know if I really want to make the switch.</p>

10

<p>
[quote]
Physiology and Human Biology are the most important for medical school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Wrong. Please do some research before you start helping others. I'm tired of seeing baseless posts like this. Med schools care more about molecular biology and biochemistry. Most schools highly recommend a semester of biochemistry instead of a semester of human biology related course. In fact, some schools even DISCOURAGE taking human biology courses such as anatomy. UCLA is a great example. Here's what the UCLA SOM posts on its admissions website (Medical</a> Student Resources:%5DMedical">http://www.medstudent.ucla.edu/prospective/admissions/default.cfm?pgID=3):))&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
Courses overlapping in subject matter (e.g. human anatomy) with those in the school of medicine are not recommended. However, basic or advanced courses in biological science (e.g. cellular physiology) are desirable.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Take note, it finds cellular, not human, physiology desirable.</p>

<p>
[quote]
In MCB, you are not required to take any physiology.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That doesn't mean you cannot take any physiology class. You can still sign up for IB classes during telebears. Yes, you might not be able to get into those labs, but so what? There will be plenty of classes you can't get into since you're not in that major. And let's be honest, most MCB majors take IB courses just to boost GPA. Labs are way too time-consuming for a GPA boost when lectures (which almost all majors can get into) are so easy. Also, MCB offers quite a few physiology classes: MCB 136, 135e, 135k, and 32. These are cell-based physiology classes that med schools like UCLA actually find desirable in applicants.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Could anybody tell me where I could find information of actually trying to switch into CoE? Right now I am L&S and I would like to know if I really want to make the switch.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Here you go:</p>

<p>Change</a> of College — UC Berkeley College of Engineering</p>

11

<p>^ You are basing all that on just UCLA. We already knows UCLA does things differently than others admissions-wise (i.e. They are the only (or amongst the only) to require stats).</p>

<p>Your entire analysis is based on just getting into UCLA. What is true for LA isn't necessarily true for everyone else</p>

<p>Also regarding getting to IB labs for MCB students, it depends if you are using an IB course for one of your elective. At least in the case of Medical Ethnobotany and Exercise physiology, MCB requires lab. Also I am not telling people not take biochem; in fact it is not unheard of for IB premeds to petition their faculty counselor to take MCB 102 instead of one of their area courses.</p>

12

<p>
[quote]
Could anybody tell me where I could find information of actually trying to switch into CoE?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Go ask your advisor and the UCB CoE office. This is more reliable.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
Physiology and Human Biology are the most important for medical school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is your argument.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Your entire analysis is based on just getting into UCLA. What is true for LA isn't necessarily true for everyone else

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My entire analysis proves your argument is wrong. To prove a statement wrong, you only need one counterexample. While it is true that UCLA is unusual in recommending against A&P (anatomy and physiology), the point still stands. As such, your statement is wrong: physiology/human biology is NOT the most important. In fact, far from it.</p>

<p>For the same reason premeds shouldn't congregate in MCB because it is difficult, premeds shouldn't major in IB due to the following faulty assumptions:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Med schools care most about physiology/human biology. *This is obviously wrong. Most med schools recommend cell biology, biochemistry, and molecular biology. Not anatomy or physiology. And in the extreme case of UCLA, taking A&P is actually looked down upon.</p></li>
<li><p>Anatomy and physiology are helpful in medical school. *The general consensus is that A&P in undergrad will not help you much in undergraduate. In general, A&P classes are too broad and not informative enough to help at all.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>If you're a premed, then I suggest you visit studentdoctor.net. Don't take advice from people who aren't premeds and haven't done enough research on the subject.</p>

14

<p>One does not have to be an MCB major to take some biochem and cell phys.
Why endure 4-7 MCB courses when you can get away with just 2-3
A single major will have a lot of time for non-major courses. Also, realize they don't care about your major. If I am not mistaken, English majors tend to make up large proportions of med school admits.</p>

15

<p>
[quote]
For the same reason premeds shouldn't congregate in MCB because it is difficult, premeds shouldn't major in IB due to the following faulty assumptions:

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This argument is completely faulty. Whether or not a given medical school cares about A/P, they are not going to reject you just because you took some of those courses. However, they will reject you for taking 4-7 MCB UDs and coming out with a slaughtered science GPA. Med schools don't know or care that MCB is much harder than IB.</p>

<p>One can be IB and take biochem and cell phys on the side (or as part of their major if they get exceptions, MCB lectures aren't categorized MCB-only) and come out with a decent GPA.</p>

<p>
[quote]

  1. Anatomy and physiology are helpful in medical school. *The general consensus is that A&P in undergrad will not help you much in undergraduate. In general, A&P classes are too broad and not informative enough to help at all.

[/quote]

Also from that site you recommended
Why</a> recommend against undergrad A&P? - Student Doctor Network Forums
Physiology</a> vs. BioChem - Student Doctor Network Forums</p>

<p>There are a lot of people who are saying it is helpful</p>

16

<p>
[quote]
This argument is completely faulty. Whether or not a given medical school cares about A/P, they are not going to reject you just because you took some of those courses. However, they will reject you for taking 4-7 MCB UDs and coming out with a slaughtered science GPA. Med schools don't know or care that MCB is much harder than IB.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How is it a faulty argument? Unless you disagree with the faulty assumptions and prove them otherwise, this isn't a faulty argument. Seeing as how most med schools recommend biochem and not A&P, you're making a dim point at best. The only faulty argument lies in your baseless assumption that med schools find A&P as the most important subjects. Of course, most med schools won't reject you for having taken those classes, but it certainly won't help in your admissions as well. Therefore, physiology and human biology are NOT the most important for medical school. And there is no reason to go into IB just for those classes as there is no reason to go into MCB because there are many premeds there.</p>

<p>And if you want to make a point of easier classes yielding higher GPA, why not just advocate majoring in the humanities? They certainly give out more generous grades in comparison to science/engineering majors. In fact, why don't you go a step further and advocate all premeds attending CSU's because they give out even more generous grades there. Besides, majoring in IB doesn't guarantee a higher GPA. You certainly have less competition, but that doesn't mean it's foolproof. </p>

<p>
[quote]
One can be IB and take biochem and cell phys on the side (or as part of their major if they get exceptions, MCB lectures aren't categorized MCB-only) and come out with a decent GPA.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>One can be a MCB major and take all IB classes as well. What's your point? If you're trying to make a point about the labs, then refer to what I said about them being too time-consuming for a GPA boost when IB lectures, which are easy to get into, give out such generous A's already.</p>

<p>
[quote]
There are a lot of people who are saying it is helpful

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Most people are saying that by the time you get to med school, you will have already forgotten most of the material.</p>

<p>The people you refer to are saying that well taught A&P classes are helpful to a miniscule extent. Let's be honest, IB 131 is not taught well. And I doubt what you learn in undergrad will be as comprehensive as what you learn in med school. After all, that's why you have to go through 4 years of comprehensive study on just a few subjects as opposed to a single semester of introductory subject in undergrad.</p>

17

<p>
[quote]
How is it a faulty argument? Unless you disagree with the faulty assumptions and prove them otherwise, this isn't a faulty argument. Seeing as how most med schools recommend biochem and not A&P, you're making a dim point at best. The only faulty argument lies in your baseless assumption that med schools find A&P as the most important subjects. Of course, most med schools won't reject you for having taken those classes, but it certainly won't help in your admissions as well. Therefore, physiology and human biology are NOT the most important for medical school. And there is no reason to go into IB just for those classes as there is no reason to go into MCB because there are many premeds there.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I am not saying not to take biochem. Everyone needs to take biochem anyways, if they are premed unless they are doing 112. You appear to keep bashing the same argument of mine that I admittedly say is wrong, its not the most important thing, they most important things are you institution and your GPA. And also, in IB you don't necessarily have to take several A&P courses. Unlike MCB you are not straight-jacketed into a single emphasis. You pick your own courses, given you follow the required guidelines.</p>

<p>
[quote]
And if you want to make a point of easier classes yielding higher GPA, why not just advocate majoring in the humanities? They certainly give out more generous grades in comparison to science/engineering majors. In fact, why don't you go a step further and advocate all premeds attending CSU's because they give out even more generous grades there. Besides, majoring in IB doesn't guarantee a higher GPA. You certainly have less competition, but that doesn't mean it's foolproof.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I have been advocating for people to major in things they like. In this thread I was advocating

[quote]
MCB is hardest bio major (ignoring chem bio). Stay away from it if you 'just want' a bio major. Only major in MCB if you love the emphases. If you just like bio in general, stay away from MCB.

[/quote]
Note my conditional clause.
IB has an average GPA of about 3.3, MCB has an average GPA of 2.9. Unless you seriously **** up, you ought to come out with a higher GPA</p>

<p>
[quote]
One can be a MCB major and take all IB classes as well. What's your point? If you're trying to make a point about the labs, then refer to what I said about them being too time-consuming for a GPA boost when IB lectures, which are easy to get into, give out such generous A's already.

[/quote]

Umm... no. IB lectures are categorized, MCB ones aren't. I recall tastyb33f (note to reader tastyb33f and tastybeef are different people), who is a senior, ended up something-hundred on the IB 131 lecture waitlist (<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-california-berkeley/546156-atypical-premed-route.html?highlight=tastyb33f%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-california-berkeley/546156-atypical-premed-route.html?highlight=tastyb33f&lt;/a> post#2). Your argument that IB classes are easy to get into is bull unless you are talking about certain large Area 1 courses like IB 160 Evolution.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The people you refer to are saying that well taught A&P classes are helpful to a miniscule extent. Let's be honest, IB 131 is not taught well. And I doubt what you learn in undergrad will be as comprehensive as what you learn in med school. After all, that's why you have to go through 4 years of comprehensive study on just a few subjects as opposed to a single semester of introductory subject in undergrad.

[/quote]

You were claiming that the consensus was that A&P courses are not of any help, there are a good few people who are saying that they can be pretty useful</p>

<p>Also, where do you come up with this ******** about IB 131.
Pick-A-Prof[/url</a>]
[url=<a href="http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=246891%5DMarian">http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=246891]Marian</a> Diamond - University of California Berkeley - RateMyProfessors.com
Her helpfulness and clarity levels are pretty damn high # Average Helpfulness: 4.4 # Average Clarity: 4.5</p>

18

<p>You've also admitted never taking IB 131 <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-california-berkeley/396487-integrative-biology-132-132l.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-california-berkeley/396487-integrative-biology-132-132l.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

19

<p>
[quote]
You appear to keep bashing the same argument of mine that I admittedly say is wrong, its not the most important thing, they most important things are you institution and your GPA.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>When did you admittedly say it is wrong? My only contention about your point was that you corrected the OP by saying that med school cares the most about A&P. It obviously isn't true and nowhere did you admit it is wrong. And there you go again, asserting what you think is true about the premed route. I have no problem with you being wrong in your own world, but when you misguide future premeds with information like the undergrad institution being one of the most important things, that's just ridiculous.</p>

<p>
[quote]
And also, in IB you don't necessarily have to take several A&P courses. Unlike MCB you are not straight-jacketed into a single emphasis. You pick your own courses, given you follow the required guidelines.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, so what? You can be in a single emphasis and take all the core classes of other emphases, such as MCB 160, MCB 150, MCB 140, etc.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I have been advocating for people to major in things they like.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Isn't that what you're supposed to do anyway? You make it sound like such a novel idea for premeds to major in something they like as if they were complete masochists running into walls.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Your argument that IB classes are easy to get into is bull unless you are talking about certain large Area 1 courses like IB 160 Evolution.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I got into both IB 132 for Spring 2008 and IB 131 for Fall 2008 both in phase II.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You were claiming that the consensus was that A&P courses are not of any help, there are a good few people who are saying that they can be pretty useful.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again those people actually took well taught A&P courses, which don't exist in Berkeley curriculum right now.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, where do you come up with this ******** about IB 131.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>From taking the course right now. Marian Diamond is a helpful person, but her course is a waste of time. It's a complete joke in that there are many engineering majors taking the class to boost their GPA's.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You've also admitted never taking IB 131 Integrative Biology 132/132L

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I took IB 132 in Spring 2008. If anyone wants to know the answer to the question I posted a year ago, it doesn't matter if you take IB 131 after IB 132.</p>

20

<p>Since 132L was mentioned here, I might as well make this poin</p>

<p>Pre-Nursing</a> Society
<a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/Health/PharmCourse.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/Health/PharmCourse.pdf&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/%7Epills/documents/Pre-Pharm%20Requirements%20(1st%20mtg).doc%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~pills/documents/Pre-Pharm%20Requirements%20(1st%20mtg).doc&lt;/a>
Berkeley</a> Optometry: Frequently Asked Questions</p>

<p>Pre-nursing, pre-pharm, and pre-optometry (often) require physio with lab.</p>

<p>That leaves three options</p>

<p>MCB 32/L
IB 132/L
IB C123A/L</p>

<p>MCB 32 can be used for Public Health, but no for any other major, so all the other options are both IB.</p>

<p>The only chance of getting into 132L or C123AL would be to be IB or to take 132L in summer.</p>

<p>Some of them also requires anatomy with lab (131/L). Just like 132L, 131L is very hard to get into.</p>

<p>If pharm/nursing/optometry is anyone's "back-up plan" from med, your physio requirement might be standing your way</p>