<p>classes are curved at c+/b-. sounds like a premed hell considering everyone is smart and competition would be that much higher with people gunning for a's when the curve is set at c+/b-. </p>
<p>Tell me everything you know. Compare UPenn with H,Y, Dartmouth, Columbia, and Brown (in terms of how tough it is to get that beastly GPA of 3.8+, research opportunities, advising, and ANYTHING ELSE).....Columbia and Brown are up in the air....I know I will apply to H,Y, and Dartmouth (and UPenn) for sure though. </p>
<p>Anything and everything helps. UPenn seems great. I drove through the state on my way to VA for ball and I liked the scenery and Penn (as in the state) isn't too far from Ontario. </p>
<p>Well, Penn does have the 2nd best medical center in the United States on campus, and it does slightly favor Penn undergraduates who apply there for medical school. That, however, is just a small perk and shouldnt be the sole factor that makes you come to Penn for premed. </p>
<p>A while back I was confronted with a similar problem. I couldve gone to more “grade inflated” ivies and I may have made the wrong choice as I haven’t been on campus yet. However, I was kinda searching around the premed forums here and saw a really prominent poster say that over 50% of UPenn students with a 3.3 GPA are admitted to medical school. That number is actually really crazy. At most other ivies, you need to hit something like a 3.6 GPA before half of your premeds are making it into medical schools. Now, I don’t think this is solely indicative of med schools trying to compensate Penn for grade deflation because MIT (notorious for grade deflation) still needed around a 3.6 before it started seeing 50% of its students getting into med schools. </p>
<p>Finally, Penn has a med school acceptance rate in the mid 80 percentile. A more grade inflated peer, Dartmouth, has about the same acceptance rate to medical school. In fact, even Stanford (even more grade inflated than Dartmouth…tho I hear their science classes can be brutal) has an 85% acceptance rate to medical school. You need to dip into HYP before you start seeing anything higher than Penn. </p>
<p>So, despite those curves, Penn is a pretty great place for premeds.</p>
<p>Disclaimer: All those statistics I cited were from memory. I didn’t go back and look any up, so some of the numbers may be off slightly. Additionally, I am an incoming freshman this year, so I have no direct experience with the university yet.</p>
<p>I’m in a coordinated dual degree program called LSM. Thru it, I get a life science degree (biology, biological basis of behavior, or biochem) and a degree in finance from Wharton. You should definately look into it as there are a bunch of other perks that come with the program. Its basically for people who are either premed focused and view business skills as criticial in being a successful doctor or for people who want to work at Wallstreet in the life sciences sector of some big firm. Of course, you can do alot more with both degrees.</p>
<p>Umm ya going to Dartmouth is “good.” I would argue going to Penn is good too and possibly even better for premed because of the facts I listed above. Its not really that much more grade inflated than Penn. The D-plan makes Dartmouth pretty hard too as your classes are squeezed into smaller timeframes. I just discussed dartmouth above because it does have a reputation for being moderately grade inflated.</p>
<p>I am actually really interested in that LSM program because I also have a passion for business and it would be really awesome to integrate that with my love for science. Could you PM me your stats perhaps…it seems to be super competitive (only 25 spots?!)?</p>
<p>I thought the D-Plan made it easier to take more diverse courses and the like. I didn’t know that it made it harder…whoops lol.</p>
<p>The GPA is my only concern. I feel that any of these schools will give me a head start on the MCAT and I will be able to get great research and advising at any of these schools…GPA is the only issue though…</p>
<p>Dartmouth is super strong at pre-med. I had 7 roommates at Dartmouth my senior year - three pre-meds. They all went to top 8 med schools (Harvard, Penn). Dartmouth goes out of its way to give grants, put professors with students, etc. I just can’t imagine a school doing much better.</p>
<p>GPA shouldn’t be a HUGE problem given that 50 percent of students with a 3.3 GPA made it into med school from Penn. </p>
<p>You are right about the D-Plan in that it lets you take a ton of diverse classes. However, the coursework for a class is not spread out over an entire semester like it is at Penn. Its more crammed in the quarter system. There are huge perks that come with the D-plan too tho. </p>
<p>LSM is competitive, but its more about fit. I was val with a 2340. However, it was the fact that I was involved in BOTH things like my school science club and FBLA. Plus, doing research in HS is a huge plus. You could search my old posts if u want to see my entire list of ECs/awards. Keep in mind that not a whole ton of kids apply to LSM, but the applicant body is really self-selected so competition is fierce. For more info check out this website:</p>
<p>For the record, I would have attended Dartmouth if I had not gotten into LSM. Their undergraduate focus is huge to me. Tho, I still think that Penn CAS and Dartmouth are about equal for premed.</p>
<p>@slipper1234, that’s exactly what I was thinking. I love the huge undergrad focus and the fact that it seems like whatever I want I can ask for and get at Dartmouth. I like the small classes, which leads to the ability to talk to professors and get to know them on a person to person basis (something I can do at my smaller high school). </p>
<p>BTW, would you have any idea of their GPAs/MCAT scores? </p>
<p>@Rtgrove, check your PMs please. The problem is I need to attend a TOP med school because I want to go into academic medicine/a career related to medicine/get into a super competitive residency. </p>
<p>And after seeing your stats I am no where close, so I’m not going to bother with LSM.</p>
<p>Essentially, if I were to ED, it would be between UPenn and Dartmouth because both offer essentially everything I would want and both are need blind for Canadians. I can PM anyone a ‘stats profile’ if it helps in any way with my choosing of a school to ED (as in, how much ED would help my chances if I am borderline, etc.).</p>
<p>ViggyRam…I cannot believe you are worried about what residency program you’re going to attend when you’re still in high school. Number one, you may well decide once you get to college that you’re more drawn to bench science than medicine and decide to pursue a PhD instead, or maybe you’ll discover you love something else and abandon science altogether. Don’t remain closed to such possibilities. Second, where you go to medical school doesn’t matter if you don’t do well in your core clinical clerkships and Step 1 of the United States Medical Licensing Exam…which you would not take, at this point, for at least seven years from now. USMLE, unlike, say, the SATs, tends to be pretty make-or-break in terms of future prospects.</p>
<p>Whether you go to Penn or Dartmouth is immaterial from the standpoint of medical school admissions. In either place, if you do remain dedicated and excel, you’ll be just fine when it comes time for MD applications.</p>
<p>^I know the USMLE is huge but the school, after talking to really prominent, knowledgeable CC’ers from the PreMed Forum, can make a difference and help get one into ROAD residencies. This is just an example of the many tracks that a top med school can help with. </p>
<p>I know that if I do well at either UPenn or Dartmouth I will end up somewhere good, but my question is about how hard do I need to work? I don’t want to be studying non-stop at UPenn because the curve for my Physics class is a C+ (just a random example). If I can work a little less at Dartmouth, for example, and get the same grades because the curves aren’t as harsh then I’d like that because I can use my extra time to pursue ECs, volunteering, and research. </p>
<p>Both schools are great and offer everything I’d need to succeed and be happy. I’m just trying to weigh pros vs. cons and gather info. about how tough it is to make good grades at UPenn as a premed compared to other schools (esp. Dartmouth).</p>
<p>My advice though: most Ivies (except Princeton) don’t pursue grade deflation policies, so if you work hard, you CAN get a 3.8+. Your performance at these schools will also be determined by how happy you are while you’re there. If you’re annoyed by the location or the politically-active nature of the student body, among other things, for example, your GPA might drop.</p>
<p>From what I hear, if you are worried about getting the grades to apply to medical school (at any college), then maybe medicine (especially academic medicine) is not the field for you. There are people who do incredibly well in college and medical school but burn out and perform very poorly as residents. You have to be able to go the whole way without taking shortcuts; if you are really meant to be a doctor, you will be able to excel in these classes and get the grades you need.
A lot of doctors I’ve met in academia (people in private practice sometimes have a different perspective) seem to think that pre-med is not made to be this difficult for no reason, but it needs to be this rigorous because it helps people understand that if medicine is their passion they are going to have to show a lot of dedication. However, there are other career options out there that may work just as well, if not better for someone.</p>
<p>I agree with Poeme. First worry about getting into a medical school, and only then worry about residency. Whatever medical school you attend, you’ll still be a doctor, but if you choose to do something else or don’t get in, the point is moot.</p>
<p>So, I should visit both schools and make a decision based on ‘fit’? How can you be sure that you were ‘meant’ to be at a school from just a visit?</p>
<p>Also, should a person ever ED if they have not visited the school (it will be hard for me to visit and expense too)?</p>
<p>Yeah you should go to both. They are pretty much equal in every possible way when it comes to grad school, admissions, etc so choose the better fit.</p>
<p>^^Meh, I still would. You said you’re from Ontario. I know that New York -> Toronto is like 11 hours on a bus, and it’s definitely worth visiting if you plan to spend your next 4 years there.</p>