<p>Thanks for the help, hubbellgardner. After hearing from all of your opinions, I'm leaning toward not going to Loyola, and attending an LAC or a top national university.</p>
<p>I was wondering, does anyone know if NYU discontinued its combined BA/MD Program?</p>
<p>Bump back to the top.</p>
<p>Davidson, by the way has the best pre-med program I've seen - not that there aren't others that are very good, but of the 15 odd schools DD looked at closely, it was the best.</p>
<p>Remember, one of the most important aspects of this process is determining that medicine really is for you, it is no disgrace to change your mind, there are way too many unhappy MDs out there already. the shadowing Hubbell's dad is talking about, should be more for your career planning than even getting into med school.</p>
<p>For the past 5-6 years, I've set my mind on medicine. Although sometimes I've felt I could become a businessman or lawyer, I always seem to return to medicine. I've had the opportunity to shadow with my family's doctor, and this summer I'll be taking part in an internship at either Stanford Hospital or West Valley Medical, one of the largest medical centers in Northern California.</p>
<p>Although some people choose the medical field due to parental pressure or because of the thought of a high salary, the reason I like medicine is due to a number of severe illnesses I had as a child (that took nearly 3-4 months to cure). In addition, I've had severe asthma for a long period of time, and I'm interested in becoming an allergist due to personal experience. So, my motivations are clear for me as to why I would like to become a doctor. After hearing from all of you, I'm leaning toward majoring at a higher institution, such as Dartmouth or The University of Chicago, in Philosophy - instead of pursuing the path with Loyola.</p>
<p>It's a great help to get input from actual doctors here at CC. Thanks again for the help.</p>
<p>I thought I would bring up this blast from the past, as I have gained some experience on this topic in the past 2 years. I am presently going through the medical school application process-have had many interviews and 3 acceptances to date. I attend a top tier LAC known for its notorious grading standards(Davidson) and there have been many comments on this board about whether you should go to a school where you can get the highest GPA, or go to the most inexpensive school(to save money for med school later) etc..
I had a GPA of only 3.2(3.6 in sciences and math), but found out during the interviews that most(but not all) med school adcoms did take the rigor of the undergraduate college into account. One med school dean even said 'we get so many applications from kids with 3.8 GPA's who score <25 on the MCAT that we no longer take GPA's from some schools seriously' (he did not mention which ones he was referring to). What was important were the following factors: actual medical experience of some kind(shadowing, working in clinics etc..), some research exposure, a 'competitive' MCAT(which I translate as >30) and good interviewing skills. Some schools clearly had GPA and MCAT cutoffs (judging by my friends who got interviewed and those that did not-Wake Forest and Vanderbilt being examples), others had a more holistic approach. Anyway, for those who hope to go through the process, I offer this advice-pursue your dream-obtain medical experience, do something related to medicine every break and summer, and study for that MCAT(which I am sure saved my butt!!).</p>
<p>"I'm a student at the oldest Jesuit high school"</p>
<p>If you're looking to continue a Catholic education, check out the University of Dayton (Ohio). I think last year 90% of students were accepted into med schools, and students are encouraged to get involved in research -- either with faculty or independently. Good luck in your search!</p>
<p>Go to a grade-inflated Ivy or a grade-inflated LAC if you have the option. In terms of your premed education, there isn't much difference between top schools and state schools or even your high school. There's only so many ways to teach intro bio. However, at smaller schools like Ivy League colleges, LAC's, and of course other top colleges (Stanford, Duke, whatever) you will have more research opportunities and presumably better recs. Despite what hubbellgardner said, med schools do not adjust sufficiently for grade deflation. A 3.8 at a state school will beat out a 3.5 from UChicago or Cornell anyday. So it is in your best interest to avoid "difficult" schools for the sake of med school admissions.</p>
<p>Hello Future'MD! I am a premed student like yourself and I know a lot about medical school admissions, so here's my advice:</p>
<p>1) Medical schools, by and large, do not care where you went to undergrad. A handful of schools give preference to Ivy league grads because they think it makes them look good. Most do not care. They're not taking a 3.0 GPA/30 MCAT from Harvard over a 3.9/35 from Any State University. Check out <a href="http://www.mdapplicants.com%5B/url%5D">www.mdapplicants.com</a> for evidence.</p>
<p>2) Ivy League schools have truckloads of intelligent, highly-motivated students which creates a very tough environment for people to stand out academically. You can do it, of course, and many people do -- but still, it will likely be more difficult than at Any State University.</p>
<p>3) This being said, the average GPA/MCAT is somewhere about 3.6/30. A safe combo would be 3.5/35, although getting a 35 on the MCAT is easier said than done. The takeaway point here is that you want to go to a college where you can maintain a 3.5+ GPA, preferrably higher due to an upswing in performance during years 3 and 4.</p>
<p>4) You want to attend a university with a premed/preprofessional office that has a committee. Outside of the fact that this office takes most of the work out of applying by arranging all the paperwork, the Preprofessional Committee will meet with you after your MCAT and interview you to see if you merit a Letter of Recommendation (LOR) from them. That letter usually will replace the three professor LOR's you're required to get... but you should get the LOR's from the professors just in case.</p>
<p>5) Be careful not to be a "cookie-cutter" applicant: 1 year of research, ER volunteer during freshman year but not since then, premed club officer with minor role, shadowed a doctor, did Habitat for Humanity once... blah blah blah. Find a way to differentiate yourself from the pack. The most important thing is for you to be passionate about what you pursue for extracurriculars and be committed to it... not just an event here or there for an hour or two.</p>
<p>6) I don't know much about Loyola University for undergrad but their medical school is supposedly amazing. It's one of my top choices, in fact, because students have nothing but good things to say about it -- which is very rare for a medical school.</p>
<p>7) Mattistotle doesn't know what s/he's talking about:
"all ... medical schools and residency and what not cares about is coming from a big name college. You wont get a good job, if you even get to become a doctor, if you go to a ****ty college."
100% untrue.</p>
<p>8) You said "I guess my main concern is to attend a nationally-recognized, 1st-tier medical school" ...don't get so caught up on this. It's complicated, but "first tier" generally refers to research $ and not happiness of students, strength of the curriculum, student/faculty interaction, board scores, etc. </p>
<p>9) Hubbellgardener's father had some good advice but it's not 2 applicants for every space... it's way, way higher than that. I don't remember the numbers exactly, but less than 50% who apply get admitted. It's a crapshoot and even if you do everything by the book you still have a chance of getting shot down.</p>
<p>10) If you're serious about medicine, join us on the Student Doctor Network (<a href="http://www.studentdoctor.net%5B/url%5D">www.studentdoctor.net</a>) forums and we'll tell you everything you need to know.</p>
<p>with all due respect to FAU guy; I believe his 'about 50% of all applicants get accepted"(it varies between 46%-50% in any given year), does equate to about 2 applicants(actual people applying) per medical school space. Yes, each applicant submits 10-12 applications to various schools, but the actual people/slot ratio is about 2/1.</p>
<p>An MCAT score of 35 is in the 95th percentile, so it is unrealistic to really expect that score.</p>
<p>Although he belittles the 'cookie cutter' approach, I can tell you from my interviews that certain things need to have been accomplished. I know of applicants with 3.8/38 stats who did not get accepted because they had no actual exposure to medicine in any way. It was more of a game to them than any true interest in medicine, and the adcoms recognized that.</p>
<p>I disagree wholeheartedly with the advice that looking for a school with a pre-med committee is the way to go. For some it might be, for others it could be the death sentence for their med school dreams...</p>
<p>A lot will depend on the committee and the attitudes and culture of that committee within the context of the school. But there are stories of competitive applicants being rejected by their home institution committee, simply b/c they weren't a guaranteed "lock" for getting accepted somewhere (I use the term lock loosely b/c med school admissions can at times be incomprehensible).</p>
<p>At some places a committee is used solely as a quality control measure so that the school can boast of 100% placement. The committee prevents less competitive applicants from applying by either not writing as glowing a letter as they do for others, writing no letter at all, and in some case preventing other profs for writing letters on behalf of students who are not approved by the committee. </p>
<p>Again this does NOT happen all schools with a committee but does happen often enough that students should be aware. I do not suggest that this be a "deal breaker" for any student if they otherwise love the school. Just don't get caught up by a school that boasts 100% placement.</p>
<p>As for the 2/1 ratio thing...yes nationwide it works out that way but to each individual school that is not the case (I think that Tufts in the past couple years has had ratios of 80:1 or 90:1...my own med school has been steadily increasing in the ratio from 8:1 now up to 14:1 over the past couple years probably due to its rise in the USNWR rankings). You must also keep in mind that some state school only accept residents of that state and so that further compresses the number of spots. Regardless, the ratio demonstrates that proper selection of places to apply to is a key component of the admissions process. While the 2/1 ratio sounds nice and favorable, the fact remains that no one is competing for spots with such good odds.</p>
<p>"You want to attend a university with a premed/preprofessional office that has a committee. Outside of the fact that this office takes most of the work out of applying by arranging all the paperwork, the Preprofessional Committee will meet with you after your MCAT and interview you to see if you merit a Letter of Recommendation (LOR) from them. That letter usually will replace the three professor LOR's you're required to get... but you should get the LOR's from the professors just in case."</p>
<p>This is not true. The committee letter is usually IN ADDITION to the three recs you are supposed to get. My school sends out the committee letter along with the 3 LOR's at the same time. Many top schools don't have committees and their students do just fine.</p>
<p>As for the acceptance rate issue, the odds that you will get into at least one medical school (pestigous or non-prestigous) is 1:2 (meaning roughly half of all applicans don't get into any med schools). Most private (and even some public med schools) will have individual acceptance rates of below 15%. Top schools like JHU, Harvard Med, Cornell Weill Medical College, Stanford Med will boast acceptance rates of 5% or less so don't expect to get into any of them. </p>
<p>And don't pencil yourself in for that 35 MCAT just yet. Like some said, it's 95 percentile and, let me tell you, scoring in the 95th percentile on the MCAT is 10X as hard as scoring in the 95th percentile on the SAT.</p>
<p>I think a lot of people here are overlooking money. A lot of people automatically associate a doctor as being rich, which is not entirely true, as I have come to realize. Many premeds decide to go to a top university such as HYPS before entering med school, which are very expensive for the average middle-class people since these schools only offer need-based aid. Thus, by the time one graduates, he or she already has about 180k of debt to take care of. You seem like a highly qualified candidate, so lets say you work your arse off, get a 35 on the MCAT and go to stanford med school. Now, after 4 years you'll have to pay $229936 (according to USNEWS reports). So now, you will already have spend about 400K in dollars. Obviously, you're parents probably have saved money, so lets say they saved about 120k, and stanford's med school gave you another 30k need base. You'll still have about 250k in debt. </p>
<p>Once you hit med school, you'll have to COMPETE again for the high-paying careers. Should you make it even into a orthopedic surgery residency, you'll have to spend about 3 more years in residency, and only THEN can you start to pay off your loans. And even then, there will be malpractice, materials, and other expenses that will cut into your costs, so it will take a 2-3 years to pay off your debts. Now the real money making can begin. But if you didn't get into a high-paying field for w.e reason (lets say you are a GP because you like it the most), then its a new ball-game and it will take even longer to pay off your debts.</p>
<p>So in conclusion, although my example is a bit extreme, you should highly consider how much money you are paying for a school, which a lot of people here fail to recognize. There are plenty of state schools (esp since ur in california) that are good enough to get you into med school. Make sure you carefully think about the value of each school and don't jump into any decision.</p>
<p>I agree largely with that you are saying (that money should be a consideration) except for this statement: </p>
<p>"Thus, by the time one graduates, he or she already has about 180k of debt to take care of."</p>
<p>This is definitely not true. Just because a school only offers need-based aid does not mean that you will not receive grants. In fact, it's only costing me roughly $5000 extra per year to go to Cornell (which offers only need-based aid) than to go to Berkeley as an in-state resident.</p>
<p>If you're EFC is 0 which is what you are assuming by suggesting that someone could graduate with $180,000 worth of debt, then you will definitely receive some grants and probably a substantial amount. Most people I know at Cornell will be carrying around 40K in debt when they graduate. And Cornell is known as the least generous Ivy when it comes to financial aid.</p>
<p>Wherever you go, remember:</p>
<p>High GPA + high MCAT = admission to medical schools</p>
<p>You'd also need excellent recommendation letters and ace the interview.</p>
<p>Norcalguy,</p>
<p>Yes that 180k in debt was a typo. I intended to say something along the lines of 180k to pay. But anyway, here's an easier way to put what I said, the average debt of a newly graduated med student is 200k, so you really need to consider this. And you have to admit that going to a private LAC or HYPS is going to cost a helluva lot of money, so that is more likely than not going to push your debt total up even more.</p>
<p>Also, another key thing I wanted to emphasize is that not all doctors make a boat load of money. The truely high paying jobs like cardiology, orthopedic surgery, etc are EXTREMELY COMPETITIVE. Think about it this way, just getting INTO medical school is difficult, and now, you are competiting with the people who made it through the first screening for even fewer spots. Thus, no matter how smart you are (or how much you think you are), you have to have a backup plan and make sure you can compensate for these sorts of things.</p>
<p>Thank you everyone for adding to my list.</p>
<p>
[quote]
High GPA + high MCAT = admission to medical schools. You'd also need excellent recommendation letters and ace the interview.
[/quote]
While I agree with the second part, there is a large misconception that the first part is all that is necessary to get into medical school. Obviously it's important to show excellent academic potential. However, there are waaay too many people applying to medical school with numbers like 3.6/32 thinking that any medical school would be lucky to have them. </p>
<p>As hubbellgardner noted, there are a number of people with high combinations that don't warm any hearts on admissions. So it's important to establish and emphasize some of the other things that people often fail to mention -- like clinical experience.</p>
<p>So if you have a 3.6/32 and nothing else on your resume, don't think you're an automatic in. That's all I'm saying. </p>
<p>
[quote]
An MCAT score of 35 is in the 95th percentile, so it is unrealistic to really expect that score.
[/quote]
I absolutely agree that 35 is a high number and it's not an easy thing to attain even if you study for a year before the MCAT. I mentioned it as part of a safe combo because I've noticed a lot of low 30's applicants getting waitlisted/rejected but mid-30's people get accepted.</p>
<p>As a personal boast, two candidates from my school got in that range this year: one had a 34 and one had a 35. They've both been accepted. So it's definitely possible, but smart people shouldn't get full of themselves and say, "Well obviously I'm going to get at least a 35."</p>
<p>
[quote]
Although he belittles the 'cookie cutter' approach, I can tell you from my interviews that certain things need to have been accomplished.
[/quote]
Right. I meant that applicants should go above and beyond the things I mentioned. Those are the minimum achievements.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I disagree wholeheartedly with the advice that looking for a school with a pre-med committee is the way to go. For some it might be, for others it could be the death sentence for their med school dreams...
[/quote]
I stand by what I said for premedical committees even in light of the fact that the helpfulness and agenda can vary from school to school. My advice was more for differentiating between two similar schools where one has a committee and one does not. I personally would go with the school that has a committee and I admit that I'm absolutely biased because my school has a great committee.</p>
<p>I think that's a ridiculous thing to base where you go to school on. There have to be a thousand other factors that are more important that will have a much bigger impact on where a student finds the best fit.</p>
<p>No student should ever choose a school based on if/how much they think it will help them in medical school admissions (which is what you are advocating). First, undergrad school choice pretty much doesn't matter, second, most HSers who plan on going premed won't even take the MCAT, let alone actually apply, third, assumed benefit doesn't translate to the school being a good fit...I could keep going but it's ridiculous to make the presence of a pre-med committee something to look for. </p>
<p>Will you feel the same away about committees if yours tells you that you shouldn't apply?</p>
<p>I really don't want to go around and around on this matter shooting what I feel versus what you feel. I just don't.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Will you feel the same away about committees if yours tells you that you shouldn't apply?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Of course not. That's a leading question.</p>
<p>But considering that everyone I've known that has gone through the committee had a positive experience, I don't anticipate having a problem. The worst I've heard is that they delayed the committee interview so the applicant could better prepare for the line of questioning.</p>
<p>And if I wanted to apply but they wouldn't let me, I'd still find a way around it, even if it meant applying to another university for a semester and going through them.</p>
<p>But again, I don't anticipate having a problem.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That being said, the average GPA/MCAT is somewhere about 3.6/30.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Don't know about gpa, but there is <em>no</em> way the average is a 30. A 30 MCAT score is a competitive score. I believe the average is around a 25. Most people would kill for a 30. Maybe you meant (or said, didn't read all of your posts) that a 30 is the average of med school admits? That's definitely possible.</p>