<p>bumppppppppp</p>
<p>Knowing Baltimore and having heard many, many of the cutthroat examples for too many years, I am not a fan of JHU. I think that the college is consistently overranked in the USNWR rankings where it benefits greatly from two measures that are used in the calculation: the Peer Assessment rating (25% weight) and the Financial Resources ranking (10% weight), both of which are heavily benefited from JHU’s association with some major government commitments and which are primarily done for the benefit of grad students and at locations separate from the Baltimore Homewood location. </p>
<p>Despite my misgivings, some will (with reason) see if differently and consider JHU a superior choice. There are many strengths, including a highly accomplished student body. Some would consider JHU to be an “Asian heaven” as there is a larger proportion of Asian students here (24%) than at any other Top 20 college not named Stanford or MIT. Also noteworthy is the small size of JHU undergrad and how this benefits the classroom environment. 65% of classes have 20 students or fewer and only a handful of national universities can make such a claim. </p>
<p>As for Cornell and Duke, I think both are excellent choices and students will differ on which they prefer as each has much to recommend it. I personally prefer Duke and its small size, exceptional school spirit, and outstanding post-graduate placement, but some will like the imprimatur of an Ivy degree and the beauty of the gorges around Ithaca. Futhermore, I think it is widely agreed that Cornell’s engineering programs and its hotel industry programs are among the most competitive in the USA and regularly produce excellent graduates. </p>
<p>The key in making such a choice among schools like Duke, Cornell, or JHU is not the rankings and not the med school admissions or things of this nature. The choice should be driven by personal fit. Which one do you LIKE best? My likes or those of some other anonymous internet poster should not drive your decision. These schools are sufficiently different that divining a personal favorite should not be that difficult. Most important is that ALL are excellent choices and students consistently emerge from all with exceptional post-graduate opportunities whether it be in med school, other grad school or the working world.</p>
<p>Hawkette, I am not going to say you’re wrong because ultimately, everyone will stick to their own opinions.</p>
<p>However, i will say that there is no true ranking of colleges. In terms of Academics and Opportunities available, every single one of the top 20 schools will be roughly equal, including Harvard, Yale, etc to places like Emory, Cornell, etc. When it comes to the top 20 schools on USNWR, making choices based on which school is ranked what is very very shallow and callous. The most important aspect should be looking at which environment suits you the best as Baltimore, Durham and Ithaca may respectively not be the right places for everyone or anyone.</p>
<p>As to your comment about JHU being overrated, I think that is a very shallow and ignorant comment. I could also say that I think WashU, Duke, and UPenn over overrated and overranked on USNWR, which a lot of people would probably agree with, but I won’t because I believe picking schools and learning about different schools shouldn’t have to stoop to tearing other schools down. </p>
<p>If the “throat” culture that you seem to hear so much about at Hopkins is ultimately what brings you to your bad impression of JHU, then I will admit I have very little respect for you. It shows that you are both a monger of gossip, a gullible believer of words and exaggerated accounts, and a person who has never truly stepped foot and spent a decent two days in the lives of the JHU student. While I won’t venture out to say Hopkins is totally competition free, I also will say that what competition exists at Hopkins is pretty standard at worst, especially when compared to pre-meds at a bunch of other places, who I’m sure aren’t that cutthroat in the end either, as all these accounts are simply rumors.</p>
<p>No, you won’t hear a ton of in-between stories about how uncutthroat Hopkins is or how the academics meet expectations because frankly, the people that talk the most often about schools are usually the small contingent that are unhappy with it. The ones that are perfectly happy with Hopkins will probably not be saying or spreading so much because they are busy doing research, organizing fundraisers, and relaxing on the beach to care about what others “think” about their schools.</p>
<p>Life goes on.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yes and no…I bet you didn’t know Johns Hopkins is consistently ranked among the top 5 in annual fund raising… Our recently completed “Knowledge for the World” fund raising campaign is the largest completed capital campaign by any university in world history.</p>
<p>President Brody raised $1.2 million dollars a day for 12 years straight for a total of $3.74 billion dollars… Only Stanford University has raised more than us (just by a tiny bit, $3.8 billion dollars) but their capital campaign does not end until 2011.</p>
<p>So while we do receive significant amount of federal support in terms of research grants at other locations separate from the home campus… Hopkins still pwns at fundraising 
Especially given our alumni giving rate (34%?) and relatively smaller alumni base… We still do pretty well in terms of fundraising. That in itself merits 3rd place in financial resources in USNews rankings…</p>
<p>My advice is to apply to them all but none ED. What if you apply to one ED, get in, then get into 1 (or both) of the other ones, and change your mind? Then you would be stuck with the ED one!</p>
<p>My point is that while Hawkette can stick to her opinion that Hopkins is financially overrated because it’s status as the leading university in research and development spending is solely attributed to federal associations and commitments… She forgot that we just completed the largest fund raising campaign in US history… I personally think that Hopkins deserves it’s 3rd place in financial resources section. Don’t you? I have no idea why UPenn is first place. No clue lol :-P</p>
<p>Hope,
Please note that I called JHU “overranked,” not “overrated.” To me, there is a difference. As I also stated, I think that JHU is a very high quality place with a lot to recommend it and which would be an excellent college choice for many students. If you think that such a view amounts to “tearing down” JHU, then I’ll happily let others judge the quality and balance of the comments and figures presented. </p>
<p>Phead,
I appreciate your comments on the fundraising and look forward to seeing the updated JHU numbers for 6/30/09. </p>
<p>FYI, according to NACUBO, the size of the endowment at the end of the latest fiscal year (6/30/08) was $2.53 billion, which works out to a per capita level of $128k. When compared on a national basis, JHU ranks 26th when measured on an absolute basis and 57th on a per capita basis. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nacubo.org/documents/research/NES2008PublicTable-AllInstitutionsByFY08MarketValue.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nacubo.org/documents/research/NES2008PublicTable-AllInstitutionsByFY08MarketValue.pdf</a></p>
<p>As you undoubtedly know, this has been a very volatile year in fundraising and in the financial markets. The next set of NACUBO endowment data (due to be released in early 2010) will be very, very interesting for a great many colleges and perhaps this picture (and JHU’s position) will change dramatically.</p>
<p>These are all great schools and you can certainly get a great pre-med experience at any of them. What else do you want out of college? If you like lots of college spirit and good weather, go to Duke. If you want the Ivy name, and like snow sports and a diverse campus, Cornell. JHU’s pre-med is fabulous, but you won’t just be taking pre-med courses. How are their other departments, in the areas you are interested in? I didn’t apply to JHU because I wanted a student body that was more diverse in terms of their interests. I’m admittedly biased - going to Duke.</p>
<p>I have commented on many threads…nevertheless, the Hopkins folks here ( PHead,Hope2Getrice,have a good reason to support JHU, it IS a superlative institution. To address some points:</p>
<p>hawkette said that a reason that JHU is ranked so high is the peer ranking… I think that this actuallly should have a greater weighting…it is THE most important ranking )( JHU ranks #4 or so, after HYP, but is ahead of UPenn,Duke,Cornell.) The reason being, … when you apply to Medical Schools, you will be judged by your grade, AND the institution at which you toiled for it…therefore, if peers ( these aren’t students, they’re chairpersons of departments, university provosts, Deans at top institutions) rank it highly, chances are they will rank you higher than an applicant with the same numerical grade ( see the mean accepted GPAs of JHU premeds is 3.4-3.5, while the National ave is 3.5-3.6. )</p>
<p>Selectivity is DUKE >Conell> JHU, but those are just numbers. Would you rank Uchicago lower than the #8 it has, because its acc.rate is 26%…down from a whopping 35 % 2 yrs ago!
The likely reason for the higher acc.rates is that students who apply to U Chicago and JHU self select themselves, so there’s a smaller pool of applicants,because appplicants here aren’t drawn by the popular sports of Duke, or greenery of cornell.They’re more interested in studying. That peer ranking is lookin mighty good to me now…</p>
<p>The research monies that JHU gets is important, as Phead128 points out…yrs ago, when I was a premed @ JHU, I decided that I needed to do research, everyone else had a professor, I didn’t. So I took the med school shuttle and literally walked into dept chairmen’s offices, the most prominent were Albert Lehninger, and Vernon Mountcastle. They both accepted me, with only the knowledge that I had ( at that time a 3.4 at JHU).
If you don’t know who these folks are , you WILL…they’ve both written the authoritative texts on their fields, that are used by med schls and undergrad/grad schls everywhere. So research really IS the JHU culture. </p>
<p>I can’t tell you how many doors Hopkins’s name opened for me…I’m sure Duke and Cornell are great , but, those names don’t really have the same medical-forefront cachet with heads of departments. When I was accepted at a Harvard fellowship yrs later, by K Frank Austen, we spoke at length of Hopkins, and the organic chem rigor there…he then wanted me to work with EJ Corey on that basis…now would that have happened with Duke/Cornell on my resume? I don’t think so…it just doesn’t cut it.( google those names, esp. Corey)
Oh and about Cornell …anyone watch The Office?LOL…</p>
<p>I am afraid that the non-JHU posters here really have it wrong about many things…</p>
<p>I think out of these three Duke is the best for pre-med. The OP compared the medical schools of JHU and Cornell, at this stage, this is unimportant. Keep in mind that Cornell is in Ithaca and Weill is in NYC.</p>
<p>Also, I believe Duke is the hardest to get into out of the three, too. Cornell and JHU seem about the same difficulty to get into while Duke is a little harder.</p>
<p>Tark,
We can argue about the worthiness of the PA metric, but as it relates to this trio of colleges, the score differences are inconsequential:</p>
<p>4.4 Duke
4.5 Cornell
4.5 Johns Hopkins</p>
<p>For acceptance rate, I’m not sure why you feel that JHU’s applicant pool is self-selective. IMO, the school has a great tendency to attract Asian candidates and students with a high interest in pursuing a medical career, but other than that, I’m not sure what the self-selection is that you refer to. I don’t think it is similar to the self-selection that goes on for U Chicago. </p>
<p>As for selectivity, one way to look at this is to consider how many apps a school gets and how many acceptances the school needs to make in order to fill its class. This combination of demand and yield can be very telling about the relative position of various colleges in assessing the preferences of the overall applicant pool. Hopkins receives fewer apps per place than either Duke or Cornell and, in order to fill its class, also has to admit more applicants than either Duke or Cornell. (BTW, I don’t think that this is a very big deal, but you brought it up). </p>
<p>As for research, sounds like you had a great experience years ago. Good for you. I hope you know that students at Duke and Cornell likewise have many opportunities as well to do research. </p>
<p>Bottom-line, the institutional advantages among these three colleges are infinitesimal, if they exist at all. Some will prefer the scene at Duke, some at Cornell and some at Johns Hopkins. For a student aspiring to a top medical industry career, all of these colleges can get you where you want to go.</p>
<p>Cornell University
Academics
A large, diverse university offering a huge variety of courses and majors, Cornell University seems intent on putting the “universe” in “university.” Students tell us that “all the academic programs are strong, so no matter what you want to study, Cornell has the resources.” But just in case Cornell’s standout undergraduate departments in engineering, business, biology, industrial and labor relations, hotel administration, food science, animal science, and natural resources don’t get you going, “You can [always] design your own major.” Cornell offers “a mix of anything and everything, with more opportunities than you could ever want.” Undergrads point out that “Cornell is a great place for people who know what they want to do in life and want to get things done sooner rather than later, because each major program is very focused and concentrated right from the beginning.” Academics here “are hard, extremely tough.” “We don’t all have 4.0s, but we work harder than students at the other Ivy League schools. Cornell is the easiest Ivy to get into, and the hardest to graduate from. Grade inflation doesn’t exist here.” The school does its best to help students navigate the academic challenges, offering “enough help so that even the most lost student can find his/her way to a good, deserving grade.” Professors “are available anytime you need them and are more than happy to lend you a helping hand,” while both your “peer advisor and faculty advisor” are “easily accessible.” The administration does a great job “running the school smoothly” and “makes the effort to keep lines of communication open.” Students tell us that “undergraduates are offered unbelievable research opportunities and instruction from those who are at the top of their respective fields.” And when it’s time to find a job, “Cornell has a really good alumni network” and a “helpful Career Services” Office.</p>
<p>Student Body
Cornell’s student body “is diverse, and not just in the racial or ethnic sense. There are so many different courses of study at Cornell that a wide range of personalities and interests are represented. Every day, architects, engineers, hotel school students, and dairy farm majors sit down to lunch together.” Furthermore, “because Cornell is half private and half public, the students come from diverse economic backgrounds.” Pressed to provide a general description of their peers, students tell us that “the student body is divided into about three groups: the well-off, stylish-if-conservatively dressed ‘practical majors’ (most frat members, premeds, pre-laws, sorority girls, hotelies, aggies); the study-a-holics (engineers, applied sciences, some of the premeds); and the Euro-acting, blazer-and-hoodie wearing, always-thin hipsters (English, comparative literature, philosophy, film, theater, etc.).”</p>
<p>Campus Life:
Cornell is located in remote Ithaca, “on the top of a hill in the middle of a beautiful and cold nowhere.” “Beautiful gorges” and “unrivaled” outdoor activities-“everything from kayaking to pumpkin picking is just a small trip away either by foot or by bus.” “There really isn’t anything you can’t do when it comes to nature at Cornell,” but there is not much in the way of urban diversion. As a result, many “students exist strictly within the Cornell bubble.” They “have no escape from the stress of school and everything they do revolves around school.” For many, weekend options consist of “bars in Collegetown and house parties,” along with some on-campus “concerts, activities, and student-led initiatives.” Lots of students “participate in intramural sports or one of the many clubs.” One student observes, “being in a small town like Ithaca means that most people do one thing for fun: drink. At the same time, some of the dorms-i.e. the ones with fewer drinkers-are still up on the weekends playing poker or something like that. Nevertheless, the lack of a big city around you means that sometimes you can get pretty bored”-but then, there is always schoolwork to attend to.</p>
<p>Johns Hopkins University
Academics:
Johns Hopkins University is a pre-med powerhouse and one of the nation’s great producers of tomorrow’s prominent doctors and medical researchers. Boasting one of the “top research [hospitals] in the country,” the country’s “number-one undergraduate biomedical engineering program,” and “the number-one school for public health studies,” it’s no wonder JHU draws so many aspiring doctors. Students sometimes think, “almost everyone is premed.” Such a misconception is one of the reasons JHU’s many other strengths are often overlooked. Those other strengths are many, including “a fantastic international studies program,” a highly respected writing seminar that “is paving the way for liberal arts on this science-dominated campus,” a school of engineering that offers students “amazing research experience,” and “a wonderful relationship with the Peabody Conservatory for those seriously interested in music.” No matter what they study, students at JHU inhabit “an intense academic environment that works hard to make us the best applicants we can be for grad school while teaching us how to be a part of a global community.” Research is “a big highlight here.” As one student explains, “JHU was the first research university in the U.S.A.,” and you’ll find “a lot of [research] opportunities” from freshman year on. What you won’t find is a lot of hand-holding, since "Hopkins is an institution where students are given a wide range of freedom with their classes and with their social life. More importantly, [such freedom] it teaches students to be responsible for their own actions and decisions, both academically and socially.</p>
<p>Student Body:
JHU students aren’t sure “whether there is such a thing as one typical student, because there is a strong division between engineering and arts and science students.” That said, “most students work hard and play hard.” There are “lots of complaints about the workload, but people are secretly proud of the work they do.” Many here “are intensely competitive,” which is a “reflection of the pressure they feel on campus.” But “it is a myth that Hopkins is filled with cut-throat nerds.” Though “it is a stressful atmosphere at times because students want to get ahead, most of the students are very helpful and nice.” Demographically speaking, “there are all kinds of people here, which means everyone can fit in. No matter what kind of person someone may appear to be on the outside, you know that if they’re at Hopkins they must be pretty nerdy on the inside, so there’s a kind of camaraderie there.” Most students "are a little of everything, and it seems like everyone here is exceptional at something.</p>
<p>Campus Life:
“Johns Hopkins has a reputation for being a living hell, however, it is actually quite nice,” students assure us. One explains, “It is true that we have a very rigorous academic program, but that does not prevent us from having fun and enjoying the many activities offered by the school and the neighborhood. The frats and sororities are quite active but not ridiculous. there are many trendy areas in Baltimore with good bars, restaurants, and clubs. On campus and there are many events ranging from a cappella concerts to lectures from prominent political figures to concerts by artists like Guster and Talib Kweli.” Hometown Baltimore “gets a bad rep” (if you watch HBO’s The Wire, you know what that rep is), “but there is a lot to do in and around campus. There is tons of shopping, and lots of really good restaurants to eat at in the city.” There’s also “a good band scene, as well as really cheap baseball tickets.” All in all, “it’s a very fun city.” For fun on campus, “students normally go to frat parties.” JHU has some “great Division I sports teams”-men’s lacrosse and soccer are always highly ranked-and the student body regularly rallies to their support. The “beautiful” campus is a short walk from the Baltimore Museum of Art, a great place to blow off steam when the pressures of school start to build, and "is free for students.</p>
<p>Duke University
Academics:
Duke University “is the complete package: great academics, fun students, exciting athletics, and school spirit,” all enjoyed in “an almost Mediterranean climate.” Undergraduates choose Duke because they “are passionate about a wide range of things, including academics, sports, community service, research, and fun,” and because the school seems equally committed to accommodating all of those pursuits; as one student puts it, “Duke is for the Ivy League candidate who is a little bit more laid back about school and overachieving (but just a bit) and a lot more into the party scene.” Academics “are very difficult in the quantitative majors (engineering, math, statistics, economics, pre-med)” and “much easier in the non-quantitative majors, but [it] still take a lot of work not to fall behind.” In all areas, “the laid-back atmosphere makes competition practically nonexistent. It’s the norm to have large study groups, and the review sessions, peer tutoring system, writing center, and academic support center are always helpful when students are struggling with anything from math homework to creating a resume.” Professors’ “number one priority is teaching undergraduates,” a situation made more remarkable by the fact that many are engaged in “ground-breaking” research. Because “the school has a lot of confidence in its students,” it offers them “many research opportunities,” one of many manifestations of Duke’s "commitment to the undergraduate experience. Duke doesn’t ignore its undergrads in favor of its graduate programs.</p>
<p>Student Body:
The typical Duke student “is someone who cares a lot about his or her education but at the same time won’t sacrifice a social life for it. To go to school here is to find the perfect balance, even if that means some late-night cram sessions or last-minute papers. Everyone’s focused on success, but that includes social success as well.” They tend to be “perfectionists, very involved in seeking out a ‘type A’ career (read: investment banking or consulting), and go out two to three times a week, always looking polished, even when wasted.” An “overwhelming number” are athletes, “not just varsity athletes…but athletes in high school or generally active people. Duke’s athletic pride attracts this kind of person.” The student body "is surprisingly ethnically diverse, with a number of students of Asian, African, and Hispanic descent.</p>
<p>Campus Life:
Life at Duke “is very relaxed,” with “a great balance between academics and fun. People typically work Monday through Thursday and then go out and enjoy themselves Thursday, Friday, and Saturday.” Because “The student union and other organizations provide entertainment all the time, from movies to shows to campus wide parties,” there “is always something to do on campus.” Indeed, “people usually stay on campus for fun,” as hometown Durham “has a few quirky streets and squares with restaurants, shops, clubs, etc., but to really do much you have to go to Raleigh or Chapel Hill,” each 20 to 30 minutes away by car. The perception that “Durham is pretty dangerous” further dampens students’ enthusiasm for the city. Undergrads’ fervor for Blue Devils sports, on the other hand, can be boundless; sports, “especially basketball, are a huge deal here,” and undergrads “will paint themselves completely blue and wait in line on the sidewalk in K-ville for three days to jump up and down in Cameron Indoor Stadium.” Greek life “essentially runs the party scene, but almost all the parties are open so it definitely isn’t hard to get into a party.” A solid contingent abjures the Greek scene; some turn to the “several very active selective living groups on campus, which are like a watered-down version of a fraternity or sorority. Several are co-ed, and some have special themes like service and foreign language, but many are just social groups to join.”</p>
<p>
School pride is no excuse for the resurrection of threads long dead. The purpose of this forum is to answer current questions for students, not dig up threads for the sake of correcting past wrongs or spreading propaganda, however well-intentioned.</p>
<p>
I think it’d be a lot easier for all of us if you just linked to the Princeton Review website. :p</p>
<p>As usual, hawkette is right on the money. The differences between the three in terms of medical school preparation pale in comparison to the differences in location, atmosphere, and size.</p>
<p>
as usual?!</p>
<p>well most people don’t have a Princeton Review account and anyways, it’s probably a lot easier to read if it’s all on one page</p>
<p>
Yes, actually I very much agree with her basic premises.
[ul][<em>]There are many excellent schools in the Sun Belt that get overlooked in favor of northeastern schools.
[</em>]A good mix of academics and athletics can be healthy for a school.
[*]All other things being equal, smaller classes are preferable.[/ul]</p>
<p>If you are pre-med, I would strongly recommend researching Rice in Houston, Texas… we have the WORLD’S LARGEST medical center right next door with about 10-12 hospitals and tons of research opportunities. Students here are very laid back and it is a smaller atmosphere as well (only 3400 undergrads).</p>
<p>Like Tarkman said, Hopkins and UChicago are self-selecting geeky, intellectual, pre-med, nerd schools.</p>
<p>I’m not sure if I know any who has applied to Hopkins unless if it was for a specific program (pre-med) or a specific major (BME, IR, Writing sems, etc…). People know of Hopkins because of it’s major focus points… </p>
<p>I’m not sure why Hawkette is anti-Hopkins.</p>
<p>When you have the #1 Johns Hopkins Hospital (Yes, USNews does rank Hospitals), #2 Medical school, #1 School of Public Health, #3 Nursing program, #1 Medical research funding, the highest percentage of students body participating in independent research (~80%), school with the largest NIH and NSF research budget, Top 3 pre-med advising committee in the nation (highly respected among medical circles)… superior medical research opportunities…</p>
<p>Are Cornell and Johns Hopkins “basically equal” in undergraduate engineering? The rankings for Cornell (#9) and Johns Hopkins (#14) are negligible compared to Duke’s Pratt (#35?)… I wouldn’t call Cornell v. Hopkins engineering a close call though…</p>
<p>No wonder US News ranked Hopkins as the “Hottest Premed” school in 2008. That like calling Brown the “Hottest Ivy” in 2008. lol… It’s indisputable. HAHAHA.</p>
<p>Yes, We have the nation’s #1 Hospital readily accessible. Shadow the best doctors in the nation… It’s that easy.</p>