<p>In terms of admission decisions, do colleges consider the relationship (for lack of a better word) between the chosen major and the student's high school transcript? Here's the thing: daughter is a "science girl." Will have taken 5 lab sciences, done some impressive research/internships, won awards, etc. Has always thought that she would major in biology and teach, but now that the applications are in front of her she is having a bit of a crisis (she also despised her internship this summer) and is considering majoring in history and teaching or majoring in history or religion and going on to seminary. She did well in history (98 on American history regents) and very well in religion, but her transcript is skewed heavily in favor of science and I wonder if she would have trouble being considered as a history or religion major. Any advice?</p>
<p>A few years ago, my D and I went to a really good admissions forum at Barnard, run by admissions people from Columbia, Barnard, and NYU. One of the things they did was to hand out a bunch of actual (name-and-details-changed) common apps and recommendations, and then to break the people up into small groups to make recommendations on these applications. Afterwards, I had a chance to discuss my impressions with two of them. THE strongest message that came out of this process was that effective applications and supporting materials told a coherent, consistent story. There is not a whole lot of actual information available; you pore over the transcripts, essays, and recommendations for enough clues to construct some idea of a real person. Inconsistencies and things that don't make sense cause you to doubt whether you're getting it right, and the easiest response to that is to discount everything. Which, in any kind of competitive situation, essentially means tossing the application in the wastebasket.</p>
<p>That doesn't mean your daughter is necessarily stuck being "science girl", but I do think it means that if she wants to present herself as "history/religion girl" she had better make certain that her essays and recommendations explain her direction, and explain it in terms of organic development rather than a sudden, capricious shift. The other choice, of course, is to remain "science girl with other interests" for application purposes and to change later. As far as I know, most American colleges and universities do little or nothing to enforce pre-admission major indications, as long as you don't need to change schools or faculties to do what you want to do. 18-year-olds sometimes change their minds -- and sometimes also change them back again at 19. Colleges are familiar and accommodating with that, at least once they are admitted. I don't think there's any fraud involved.</p>
<p>There is one other thing to consider. If a student whose application screams Engineer! or Biologist! writes merely competent essays, that's not a killer. But if a student looks like she's planning to go into a writing field, and her essays are merely competent but not great, that's a serious problem for her application. At the end of the day, the adcomm doesn't really know what her English teacher's grading standard was, and the SAT is still a very rudimentary tool for judging writing ability. But when the adcomms read the essays, they are fully able to come to their own conclusions. That's an opportunity, of course -- in my D's case, a major one -- but it's also a potential trap. Essays that would easily clear the bar for "science girl" may fall short for "history girl". Effectively, some types of humanities-focused kids audition for college just like musicians, actors, dancers, and artists do; the adcomm gets to see them do their thing.</p>
<p>I'm assuming that your D also has had a strong interest in science, since she's done all these fine things with it. Colleges want to see students who have strong interests and do something with them. They may or may not be related to their major. I think a two-strand approach to her applications might be a good thing. On the one hand, emphasize her science interest in a coherent way, narrating a story of her interests there and why she did the things she did. On the other hand, also show a unified humanities thread, giving voice to her history/religion interests by highlighting any activities, classes, scores etc that go with them. See if she can find a way to unify these in an essay, possibly describing how her scientific inquiries may have morphed into another way of viewing humanity and human issues which is now leading her to new fields of investigation (as an example.)</p>
<p>If she can examine her own changing motives/interests, in order to be able to identify her own thought processes, she can then work on communicating that in her essays, short answers, interviews, etc. </p>
<p>I think that a student with different interests is an asset. In my S's case, he emphasized his interests in astronomy and music, and wrote an essay which brought the two together in an engaging way (brought his telescope to band camp). In the end, he's now a psych major--whcih was not even on the horizon when he applied for colleges.</p>
<p>Perhaps she may want to call herself "undecided" for now, rather than committing to something; then, as above, demonstrate the different facets of herself in her applications.</p>
<p>She has leadership and ECs in religion and, having gone to Catholic school (but not Catholic) has four years of religion classes with excellent grades, so it's not totally out of the blue. Also, her grades in history have been upper-90s all the way through. She is thinking of presenting this in her essays as being a woman of science and a woman of faith who is choosing to follow her calling to the ministry. Not sure how that will play out, though. She just knows with all her heart that she doesn't want to spend her life in a lab and isn't sure she can deal with teaching the same bio year after year. Although I will say that she may feel differently after the suckiness of her just-completed internship wears off.</p>
<p>ZOOSERMOM - she may want to seriously go ''undecided'' and then explore thru curriculum and exposer before she really makes that final 'major' decision - most schools require that declaring your major by the end of the sophmore year. She may even want to consider doing a double major in the areas that interest her the most. But I would certainly be looking at schools that can fulfill all of her interests.</p>
<p>There you go, Zoosermom; I think that could be a potentially excellent essay! If she can find an incident, moment, activity, conversation etc, that crystallizes this discovery about herself, she could really show some great things in an essay. It doesn't sound like she'll be looked at askance should she call herself a history or religion major, esp with the added info, but I think, echoing Jeepmom, she might still want to see herself as undecided and try a few things first.</p>
<p>You guys are just the best. Talk about helping break down an issue to the important aspects and clarify how to deal. I am going to talk to her and suggest the undecided option. I think that she is too close to the internship-from-hell to think clearly. Perhaps I'll suggest that she complete her apps and rec request letters but leave the major blank until the last minute. Thanks again so much.</p>
<p>Zoosermom, please do not stress about declaring a major, let alone having to have a consistent selection of classes throughout high school and college. In many schools, the curriculum is established and students have little choice. Except for very large schools or schools offering numerous electives, there is really little a student can do to explore and find his or her "vocation." Looking farther, college is also the place for a student to try different things and explore the multiple offerings of a school. Admission officers are very realistic that student DO change major, and often more than once. </p>
<p>Regarding the essays, while I would never recommend to spend many words explaining class choices in high school, I believe that your daughter might have an opportunity to build on her "discovery." A few weeks ago, you wrote about your daughter facing an ethical choice. This event might provide the anchor to a solid essay, as she could explain how a difficult issue forced her to start the process of looking into herself. Depending on her final choice, this may lead to pursuing a more spiritiual career in college. </p>
<p>Lastly, I'd like to repeat how important it will be to project the image of who your D truly is, and not what is merely expected by unknown adcoms. The schools that value her character and the expression of who she is will be THE schools for her. </p>
<p>PS One of the very best teachers I met was a science teacher who also happened to be a nun. She was also a wonderful person and a constant source of guidance for personal issues unrelated to sciences.</p>
<p>Xiggi, you are just a star!</p>
<p>JeepMOM and xiggi are right. Why are we having our kids make this decision at such an early age? Those that are positive, fine, but a lot waiver and even some of the positive ones change their majors. Isn't that what college is all about? Exposing our kids to all kinds of things and having them make the decision later? That's why colleges don't require anyone to choose until the end of their sophomore year, and they do that with help from their advisor. Sounds like your D is a true Renaissance woman - she loved and continues to love science, (and maybe her internship turned her off science) but also loves the humanities. Who said that a science person couldn't love lit and study it as well? Isn't that who she really is? Why not write about that?</p>
<p>Oops! I meant history,not lit. One-track mind. Just was talking to another student about similar situation, and it was lit.</p>
<p>"Isn't that what college is all about? Exposing our kids to all kinds of things and having them make the decision later? That's why colleges don't require anyone to choose until the end of their sophomore year, and they do that with help from their advisor."</p>
<p>Interesting question. At one level, I would like that to be "what college is about". In the vast majority of the world, however, it isn't about that at all. US colleges with an end-of-sophmore-year deadline are way at one end of the spectrum; most of the world forces kids to choose going in. (And most of the world does not do remedial high school in college, something pretty much every US college does.)</p>
<p>As a practical matter, kids who wait until the end of their sophmore year to decide on (as opposed to declare) their major are probably putting themselves at a terrible disadvantage. Realistically, you are going to get a lot more out of four years of college -- and you are going to have an easier time getting OUT of college in four years -- if you have an eye on your major requirements during your first two years. Kids who want to use AP credit, etc., to shorten the length and lower the cost of their BAs or BSs -- and that's a lot of kids -- need to hit the ground running. (My D figured out during her first year that she could graduate in 3 years, but between major requirements and core requirements she would be able to take only 2 true electives, ever.) I suspect that, in the non-elite education world, there is a high correlation between kids who know what they want going into college and kids that complete college and get employed or grad schooled within 4 years.</p>
<p>Furthermore, even at the best colleges, it's a rare introductory course that really delivers educational value. To get the full benefits of a great educational institution, a kids need to get to a level of expertise where they know what's going on in a field and can appreciate what the faculty is doing. (And getting to that level of expertise in one field also changes the experience of taking basic courses in other fields, because they know what the relationship of the "intro" to the high-level work is.)</p>
<p>I think it's good to let kids sample a bit and get the lay of the land at their particular institution before they lock into a particular department and major. The actual situation and the paper description in the catalogues are not always the same, and the descriptions are often written in a code that is not fully intelligible until you are on the inside. But, by the same token, I think kids need to be focused from the outset on the need to investigate a limited number of options and to choose among them, and they probably should have it down to a very short, complementary list by the beginning of their second year.</p>
<p>She sounds to me like a perfect History of Science major. :-)</p>
<p>I basically agree though that she should just admit to being undecided (I love science, but my internship showed me that lab work is probably not the right direction for me) or sell herself as someone who could combine her interest in science with emerging interests.</p>
<p>JHS, I am afraid that your position does provide a gross generalization of our educational spectrum. Based on my experience, I find your statement, "Furthermore, even at the best colleges, it's a rare introductory course that really delivers educational value" as inaccurate as your position on undeclared students. For some, it is important to approach college with a pre-professional eye; for others, the journey of self-discovery means more than force fitting into an established pattern. There are many reasons why many students DO switch majors; one of them being unrelaistic expectations and ill-advised pressure based on faulty information. </p>
<p>Granted, I can only speak about the school I attend, but I doubt that it is unique in the United States.</p>
<p>I think that lots f kids apply as undecideds</p>
<p>My daughter was going to originally apply as a science major, but when she realized that they then wanted her to sit in on a calc class, she said she was "undecided".( but then she graduated in biology- so she did have to take that calc class)</p>
<p>If you are going to major in science, you do need to plan for that at the get go, because the basic chem/bio/physics classes as well as math will have to be taken before you can take the higher coursework.</p>
<p>TO major in history, doesn't have so many courses that you have to take in sequence, and I don't think that her interest in high school science is going to "count against her" if she changes her focus in college.</p>
<p>With respect, I don't know that there is any evidence - at all - for JHS' contentions. They are opinions and only opinions, in my estimation. </p>
<p>I am another vote in favor of "undeclared." After all, that's what she is! Even among applicants who do declare a major on their application, the statistics on the % who change are very high.</p>
<p>The exception to this, as far as I know, would be those situations where schools have "impacted" majors or the equivalent, and it is hard to get into them if you were not directly accepted into the appropriate department/school at the outset.</p>
<p>xiggi - count me as another admirer of your eloquence on this topic.</p>
<p>XIGGI - very well said and I agree.</p>
<p>At many colleges - you may be accepted via a certain major - but........... the reality is that you must declare eventually in that major - and that can happen between end of freshman year and end of sophmore year - up to that point most college students are essentially undeclared - officially.</p>
<p>I think many an entry level class can give some overview of that subject - maybe a general one but at least some idea. I know very few college kids who are actually declared in the the major they thought they would be in. Yes - there are exceptions to that - but for the most part I think many college students wait - or change a few times - till they are finally locked into one. I even know kids who - because they really don't know where want to go in life - that have ended up declaring as a liberal arts major.</p>
<p>There are some schools who do want a major declared on admission - and some programs that will not allow a student to change direction - those programs are usually for the very very self directed student who KNOWS - without a doubt - the direction they are going.</p>
<p>I have a very hard time expecting 17-18 yo's to KNOW what direction they are going in life - I would much rather see these students do some exploring and truly find their fates................ mine did that - and neither of them have any regrets - they both started in one direction and quickly learned that it was not their calling in life - it took a bit to find that out - but....... they had the opportunity to make that choice for themselves - as every college student should.</p>
<p>For many college students - that 4 year education is limited to just that - 4 years - some realistically extend that time to 5 years - tho that can be at great expense. Thus the reasoning that majors are declared by the end of the sophmore year - to start into the major courses in the junior year.</p>
<p>
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If a student whose application screams Engineer! or Biologist! writes merely competent essays, that's not a killer.
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</p>
<p>This isn't true at every school. It certainly isn't true at mine.</p>
<p>I agree with the idea that college is meant to be an opportunity to explore different subjects, and not just a 'trade school.' But I think JHS's comments have been somewhat misconstrued. I don't see a push for students to make a career choice at the age of 17 in her posts, but I think there is a point to presenting a coherent story to admissions people. If Zoozermom's D has a strong science background, that may be helpful in the process -- while there are more and more girls interested in science, I think still more are humanities or Social Science types. She still has plenty of time to change majors several times (I did!) and even colleges if the first one doesn't work out. But she's made good choices in pursuing science courses in high school -- it's difficult to make up a deficit in those areas.</p>
<p>I agree with the concept of presenting a coherent story... but it doesn't necessarily have to relate to what the student will major in. As far as that goes, it is a lot easier to switch from math/science to social science/humanities than the other way around... and requisites for most social science/humanites majors tend to be much broader and more flexible, and less linear in approach. </p>
<p>In other words, if you decide at the end of sophomore year that you want to be a chemistry major, and you haven't taken any math or science courses, then you've got a problem: you have to take the basic courses before they will even allow you to take the advanced courses. That is not so much of a problem with an English or History major -- very few courses have specific prerequisites other than a general introductory course, and even that can be waived with AP credits. My son is entering a college as a transfer and a poli sci major -- (coming from undecided/liberal arts at another college) -- and he signed up for 3 upper division poli sci courses... no problem at all. Even starting late, it will be possible for him to complete all requirements in 3 semesters. He actually has a strong interest in science as well - ideally he might prefer to be an environmental science major -- but for the science major he would have to make up more courses, and it would take much longer to graduate. </p>
<p>So basically - I don't see a problem with "undecided" -- but any kid who <em>might</em> consider science should also take introductory level science courses their first year, just to keep options open. Many colleges have core or distribution requirements that will force the freshmen to take a balanced approach to coursework in any case.</p>