<p>"By the way, so did I- and the only people they (Inv Banks) hired period were from elite schools- whether they be philosophy majors or engineers. So point..?
Point is that the liberal arts majors from elite schools don't have to worry as much about securing jobs after graduation (the "name" opens doors for them -no matter what they've majored in). On the other hand, an engineering major from a less than elite school can usually secure a good job without much trouble. IMO, the english and history majors from that same school will have more trouble finding jobs that pay reasonable salaries. So they may have to go to grad school (and borrow more $ to do so). So, I guess it's life isn't fair - but it might be more fair (at least in the beginning) for engineering grads.<br>
I am also not dissing liberal arts degrees. I have one as does my husband. I have great colleagues with majors in all areas . But it's hard for me to read through posts that gush about how wonderfully prepared Liberal Arts grads are for the work world. And how students who care about average starting salaries are greedy. Let's respect the choices of all students -and also keep in mind that the choices can feel different when they have very little (if any) financial cushion to fall back on.</p>
<p>Agreed, and previously stated, that grad/ professional school is part of the package for LAC. If they can manage this, then perhaps in the end life is unfair for the engineering undergrads, who may well only use all their vocational training for a short time and are deprived of the benefits of a liberal arts education. An education which, in the long run, may be more beneficial for a particular individual,depending. Though not in the short term, no argument there.</p>
<p>If grad/prof school is not going to be part of the plan then the initial sledding is indeed likely to be rougher. Far down the road, maybe not. depending on the person.</p>
<p>FWIW, I don't recall reading that anybody thinks vocational majors are greedy. IMO, the greedier major can be liberal arts. Not out of the box, but down the road.</p>
<p>Unless a student is "pre-professional" ... i.e. engineering, business, architecture, etc.... it hardly matters whether they're in an LAC or taking a liberal arts curriculum in a prestigious university. THe only difference is that those in the LAC will likely get a lot more individualized attention.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There is plenty of time in life to add enrichment classes and read books outside your work interest--it does not end in four years. I spent much more time in museums and reading lit books after college than in college--and all without having to listen to the latest abstract theory of literature from some leftie who wishes they were in Paris or at least NY.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Thank you... I couldn't agree more... your undergraduate majore doesn't pigeon hole your learning/breadth of knowledge. An accounting major (which I am, with a minor in psychology), doesn't necessarily have to limit his/her life to the technical side of business and do/learn nothing else. Yes, accounting majors are rather practical and desire to have good job prospects upon graduating, but it doesn't mean their education can't continue and that they can't read/study/experience history, art, sociology, psychology, math, economics, etc. It just means that they aren't doing it for credit. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that, and I also agree with the sentiment that your undergraduate degree does not determine your entire career. In fact, my career interests lie more in computers than in business, and I plan on further studying computer languages, etc after completing my undergrad degree, but I also think an accounting degree will always be a good foundation.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15565824/site/newsweek/%5B/url%5D">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15565824/site/newsweek/</a>
Interesting article about the experiences of a young lady with an undergrad degree in philosophy. I would hope most grads are doing better than this!</p>
<p>Just goes to show that it doesn't matter if you go to Wesleyan, Barnard, Stanford or Yale!
I'd have serious concerns about that young lady no matter what she took. Last summer my kids filled out their W-4s with no problem ... and they had just graduated from high school. Then again, this college grad had no problem figuring out how her short skirt helps her financially. Should we be impressed?</p>
<p>So would I! Back in the Middle Ages, I spent a summer waitressing. I had to fill out various forms. They did not cause me so much sould searching; but then, my undergrad degree was not in philosophy. I did not spill beer on any customer, either, though I learned for the first time, that Americans liked to put ice in everything they drank except milk (my last time drinking milk was when I was about 6 and it was heated).
Maybe offices of career services could hold a class on the practical aspects of real life such as renting apartments, filling out forms, etc... But where are the helicopter parents responsible for raising such clueless grads?</p>
<p>How did she fill out her college application forms?</p>
<p>I never had a class in renting an apartment ... I might have asked my (non-helicopter) parents a few questions ... but it really wasn't a big deal.</p>
<p>Besides, these are not issues limited to "liberal arts" graduates. I know many an engineer who had no clue about leases, tax forms, resume writing, or interviewing.</p>
<p>I have little sympathy - she knew she was looking for a job; she knew she'd have to fill out a W-4. Why didn't she just ask someone???</p>
<p>curmudgeon--I'm sorry you had a less than stiumulating experience at a research U. It seems to me that this is a factor of whatever school you were at, not the fact of what kind of school it is. </p>
<p>My H went to a research U and majored in Bio and Phil. He also took almost enough English for a third major, plus a lot of more wonderful, indepth classes in a lot of areas outside his majors.</p>
<p>I went to a research U and majored in English, though I also took many fascinating classes in all areas that stressed interconnections between ideas, fields, theories, etc.</p>
<p>My S is at a research institution, and it probably has one of the most intensive inter-disciplinary cores in the country.</p>
<p>My D graduated from a fantastic LAC. Like the rest of us, she got a fine liberal arts eduction.</p>
<p>To limit the possibility of that happening to LACs only is just silly, to me. I am a huge fan of classic liberal arts education, I don't think you have to be well off to get one (I sure wasn't), and I don't think you have to go to an LAC to get one, either.</p>
<p>The girl who's a bowling alley waitress misses the ENTIRE point of a philosophy education. It doesn't teach you how to find an apartment; it teaches you how to read, comprehend, and critique the most complex and abstract writings on ANY subject--including a pamphlet, chapter, or book about finding an apartment.</p>
<p>Re: the article about the philosophy grad. Does she expect to know these things by OSMOSIS? I don't know any recent grad who knows all the details of getting a job, paying taxes, saving for retirement, etc. They <em>learn</em> them. </p>
<p>I do think that LACs and other types of colleges are beginning to address these "problems." I know that Smith offers a (one credit or no credit) program called "Women in Financial Independence" that deals with the nuts-and-bolts of taxes, investing, and debt management. I wouldn't be surprised if other colleges offer similar workshops - classes that aren't full credit but which are geared toward preparing students for the "real world." </p>
<p>I would hate to see a four credit class in filling out forms, though. :-)</p>
<p>Vassar does offer one accounting class. Harvard offers nothing like that ... the kids who are interested all go down the road to MIT!</p>
<p>Very nice discussion. I have enjoyed reading it. I am a Big State U Grad (Science major) then on to med school. I took 6 or 7 no-science courses at the urgings of the pre-med counselors and was glad I did. However it was not the same level of education as those who majored in thoses areas. Most med schools are looking for students who don't just do science.</p>
<p>I have encouraged my D to look at LAC's. One reason is that she likes those subjects and I think strongly that people should major in what they like. (I like science-she doesn't) Also a LA major can take math and science courses, they have to! If one does what they like they will be better at it and if they learn how to think,, analyze, thoughtfully express their opinion they will also be better at it.</p>
<p>Another point: vocational-type training usually gets higher paying jobs up front, but does limit one in the future (potentillay). A family member with 2 eng degrees (one from Rice) has been laid off several times as the dotcom bust occurred and now as much of his work is being "outsourced" overseas. He has very specific training which does limit his job oportunities-he's an engineer, but lacks many communication/ managements skills.</p>
<p>Another point: Be very careful with statisics. Average salary of engineers (for example) doesn't include people who can't get a job, are unemployed or went into a different field because they didn't like eng. (or whatever area we want to look at.) A colleaugue of mine (M.D.) is a history major, but the stats won't list his income under history majors, but under doctors</p>
<p>A LA degree certainly limite one from working as an Architects, etc. but if your field "downsizes" or work is outsourced overseas, you can get a job in any industry with thinking, analyzing, etc. skills and probably limits you less than a specific degree in o focused field. I realize that you can be an accountant for a museum (or even a LAC!), but many of those will be through a acct. firm.</p>
<p>Another point (this is getting long, isn't it) Tony Snow-presidential press secretary got a philosophy degree from a LAC (Davidson, I believe)</p>
<p>Bottom line: both types of education (can) overlap substantially and each has their place for individuals. Everyone should study their passion and add in a "bunch of other stuff" to be well edicated overall.</p>
<p>"Also a LA major can take math and science courses, they have to!"</p>
<p>Actually, at several LACs students don't have to take much of anything - if the curriculum is open.</p>
<p>Aardvark - You raise many good points. There is definitely an overlap in both kinds of education - and the motivated student will choose his/her courses carefully.</p>
<p>garland, who are you fighting? LOL. </p>
<p>
<p>To limit the possibility of that happening to LACs only is just silly, to me. </p>
<p>I don't think you have to be well off to get one (I sure wasn't), and I don't think you have to go to an LAC to get one, either.
Did I say any of this? Wow. If you heard that, I'm sorry. I was simply saying that I don't think LAC's need to change at all. Contrary to what others have said. At least , don't change the one my kid is attending. I'm liking it just fine the way it is. She's getting what she needs (so far). </p>
<p>I did contrast her first semester course "Search" to my lower level courses in college and said that mine were not as discussion based or mind expanding, teaching you to think type courses but more learn the facts courses. I think I said that a good college would do both, and that at my D's college "so far, so good" or words to that effect. </p>
<p>I know that a kid can get a similar experience by carefully choosing courses at any number of research uni's. I never said anything to the contrary. Did I? ( I do think my school had more "learn the facts" lower level courses than my D's school, but folks that was 30 years ago. It could have changed , too.)</p>
<p>And while I'm often more than willing to be "silly" when trying to make people laugh, I don't think I was being silly in that particular post. ;) </p>
<p>I'm sorry you misunderstood. I wasn't slamming research U's. My D had a few on her list that she really loved and would have been very happy to attend.</p>
<p>I think a lot of it depends on the particular kid and his or her learning style. I know lots of kids who love big, anonymous lectures, and they can absorb the information given to them. On the other hand, I had a different learning style - I needed the give and take of discussion groups. My undergrad experience was at a small, top-level research university, and even in the TA sections of large lectures, we were not expected to discuss or challenge any ideas given to us. We were expected to absorb. That didn't work for me, and it wasn't until the middle of my sophomore year, when I was done with the large lectures, that I really began to learn in seminars. Then I went to law school, where I excelled with the Socratic method, even in my 100 person intro law classes.</p>
<p>My d has my learning style, so she's looking at LACs. If she ends up at a research university, would she take the same courses in the same subjects? Probably, but she may not have as good a learning experience.</p>
<p>You can get a Liberal Arts education at any school, large or small. The difference is in the atmosphere and teaching methods.</p>
<p>Curmudeon, certainly don't want to pick a fight with you, and it's not a big deal, but rereading your post, still sounds like it's only the LAC where you go to think. I don't really think you believe that, but it reads like that there. </p>
<p>The last lines you quoted of mine were directed at other thread comments, not yours. I sure didn't make that clear, did I?</p>
<p>Garland, you're right. I don't believe that. Never did. What we have here is a failure to communicate. ;) </p>
<p>I just don't agree with the idea on this thread that LAC's need to change.</p>
<p>And there, we definitely completely agree!!!</p>