<p>curmudgeon: Haha. I love that. Well put. I agree. ;)</p>
<p>katwkittens: Wasn't your son up for the Morehead at UNC, or do I have that wrong? I'm really intrigued (and very surprised), though, by what was said to your son (or, at least, what I <em>think</em> you're saying was said) by the dean at the med school. Did he actively discourage him from UNC?</p>
<p>Kat, I'd like to think after 260 posts we aren't discussing an easy decision. :)</p>
<p>Are your kids happy with their choices?</p>
<p>If a kid does average work, maybe a 3.0 the first 2 years and then figures he/she wants to go to med school, is it too late to turn things around?</p>
<p>Aren't there schools where you can do a fifth year, make up any deficiencies and then apply to med school?</p>
<p>I also just noticed the thread on this forum (initially posted June 2005) about the seniors (class of 2005) at Thomas Jefferson in Alexandria--public magnet and highly selective-- and their college choices. Interesting results, especially in light of the earlier conversation and "study" on this thread. 116 out of 407 chose UVA. Lots of other public universities chosen as well. I'm guessing, too, that these graduates had lots of options.</p>
<p>I am not surprised by the TJH results. It is a public magnet, and as such attracts students with a vast range of SES backgrounds. UVA is an excellent school, and for in-state, hard to beat in terms of costs. Same thing with the UCs for CA residents.</p>
<p>Yes, they are both content with their decisions. They have 2 very different personalities and learning styles and of course abilities so they ended up choosing schools that would not only help them academically grow but mature socially and in strengthening their characters.</p>
<p>They knew what their strengths and weaknesses were when they were selecting schools and were careful to choose schools that would challenge and enhance those strengths and help to overcome their weaknesses.</p>
<p>As far as your question regarding average work: I believe it is never too late, and if student is committed to such a goal it could be possible.</p>
<p>Kat</p>
<p>marite: I agree, and I'm not surprised, either. But I do suspect the majority of those kids had lots of excellent choices. So I think those results certainly make one question the poster (can't remember who it was-- JES?) who said that he didn't believe students, on a regular basis, turn down Ivy's for state schools. Of course, we don't know how many of those did, but I can bet there was a large percentage--if they bothered to apply at all.</p>
<p>Precisely. We don't know how many applied to HYPSM. The revealed preference study only surveys those who not only did apply but were admitted (two different things).</p>
<p>The problem, as I stated, is that posters have been comparing different types of statistics. </p>
<p>I suspect that it may turn out very like the UCs: many CA students do not bother applying elsewhere.<br>
They're comfortable with the size of the UCs because of greater familiarity (in a way students from the NE might not be), and the in-state tuition is hard to beat. TJH students have almost guaranteed admission at UVA. Why bother applying elsewhere?
For someone in the NE, Berkeley has great strengths in the areas my S was interested in; but the OOS tuitition did not make Berkeley more attractive than HYPMS. And the size was daunting for someone who initially thought he might consider a LAC. For OOS applicants to UVA, I believe the low rate of admissions (I believe 18%) means that such applicants would have to be even better qualified than most in-state applicants. And the OOS costs may not be that attractive, either. I believe that the same 18% limit applies to UNC-CH, by the way.
For what it's worth, a friend who has taught at some large state Us, including Berkeley, and also Harvard told me that in her opinion, the best students at those state Us are every bit as good as those she's taught at Harvard. But whereas at HYP the quality of students below that level goes down gradually, at the state Us, it drops far more rapidly. The high quality of the top students should not be surprising: a large number of students who choose to apply only to their state's flagship U or choose to attend that U instead of HYP are every bit as admissible as those who do get admitted into HYP.
What smaller colleges and universities have, as a result of their size, is an academically more homogeneous body.</p>
<p>appstressin -
please remember that the 'serious' job offers are predicated upon successful completion of undergraduate and graduate work at reputable institutions. I hope it works out for your D - and it most likely will. But there is the part about not counting your chickens before they are hatched.</p>
<p>FWIW, there are all sorts of ways of networking, and from from what I have seen in the past couple of years, Curmudgeon is pretty good at it.</p>
<p>i agree, hence the crack addict comment i made in earlier post. i think we're all in agreement that networking is important, crum and jack just didn't like my example.</p>
<p>where i think there is some debate is if those opportunities are better at top schools (say the top 50 USNWR). if your goal is to work in a licensed profession such as law, engineering, or medicine, and you want to do that at a top firm, will you have more opportunities by spending the money to go to a top school? In general the higher up the ladder the better, you’re going to have more opportunities going to chapel hill than Charleston college and a few more opportunities going to Harvard over Chapel Hill so should the OP spend the money for their kid to go to a school higher ranked than CH, maybe yes.</p>
<p>Although the degree of networking difference between CH and Harvard is much smaller than CH and CC.</p>
<p>marite: I think UVA has something closer to 30% out of state. UNC-CH is 18%, although that figure is a little misleading. Recent NC legislation ensures that any out-of-state student at UNC who receives a merit scholarship, be considered in-state for tuition purposes; that move essentially raised the out-of-state to something closer to 22%. I agree with your other points, though--all valid. And while, yes, "smaller colleges may have an academically more homogeneous body," I <em>suspect</em> part of that reason is that they also lack in true diversity (including economic and racial).</p>
<p>ohio mom, i never said i wanted her to be an attorney, are you kiddin me...you think people argue or can be abusive on cc, you should see some attorneys go at it!</p>
<p>appstressin, the reason that more students from Harvard law School end up at Skadden Arps or Sullivan and Cromwell vs. students from Charleston (do they even have a law school?) has absolutely nothing whatsover to do with networking opportunities and you are very, very naive if you believe that to be the case. Top law firms will dig way way down into the class, past the kids who made Law Review, past the Order of the Coif honorees, past the moot court winners, if the school accepts the tippy top of the applicant pool-- mainly because the law school has now done the hard part of the recruiting process-- isolating the talent. All the firms have to do is go in and do some cursory interviewing.</p>
<p>Networking got nothing to do with it. Why should partners at top firms who could be billing out at a zillion dollars an hour waste their time shlepping through regionally known law schools-- who may in fact have very strong students at the top who are every bit as worthy as their counterparts at the elite law schools.... if they can efficiently swoop in and fill their associate classes from the top 14 schools? It's just cost-benefit analysis, and your kid can network her heart out and it won't get her to Skadden Arps out of a bottom tier law school.</p>
<p>I won't even bother going through the analogy for the other professions....</p>
<p>you're taking my networking comment incorrectly, what you're saying is what I mean, the college "network" did the hard part along with the student to get in...i'm not talking about buying somebody a beer type networking.</p>
<p>you're proving my poiint that it's worth it for the OP to send their kid to H over CH. Harvard's network to the top firms is more direct. i said in an earlier post "interviews, interships, etc..."</p>
<p>Blossom -
language is a very strange thing - I am sure that Skaddan Arps is a very fine firm, but to the uninitiated it does sound a bit like a toney snack cracker.</p>
<p>appstessin -
please read my post 231 - another layer of convolution.</p>
<p>My niece is one of the those argumentative lawyers ... I love her dearly but her personality has not noticably mellowed since she was three and required that the vegetables on her plate be arranged just so...</p>
<p>Appstressin,</p>
<p>DH is the son of an electrician, went to one of those selective public high schools, got merit money and worked his way through an Ivy, got himself into an Ivy law school without any networking contacts and had many offers before graduation. It was all about the academic performance for this blue collar kid. He left the law firm world for more varied and interesting work. Sorry to burst your bubble. </p>
<p>I can't wait til Curm's daughter finishes med school. I'm looking for a competent, compassionate doc!</p>
<p>
[quote]
I <em>suspect</em> part of that reason is that they also lack in true diversity (including economic and racial).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Very probably right.</p>
<p>APP</p>
<p>I see NC state is ranked above Harvard on the USNEWS rankings in the engineering rankings. In fact, many of the top 50 engineering colleges on those rankings are relatively cheap to attend. Esp for instate students. 5 publics are in the top 10.</p>
<p>If all you want is top 50 then "elites" would include</p>
<p>Arizona State
Iowa State
Univ of Illinois
Univ of Wisconsin
Univ of Maryland
Univ of Missouri -Rolla</p>
<p>My favorite at 53 is Colorado School of Mines</p>
<p>Well sure, you go to the school that is ranked highest for what you want to study. HYD etc. names are great for some fields, but kind of "huh?" for others. And companies know where the great hires come from in their fields.</p>
<p>As far as needing to be in a "challenging" group of students, that can be achieved in two ways. A top school where all the UGs are as smart as you are, or a large school that has graduate programs in your major, so you can hang out with graduates if you find yourself at the top of the UG pool. ;)</p>