<p>Thanks, all, for the heads up on linguistics/computer science. I should have thought about that more.</p>
<p>Columbia had that problem in a number of departments. The infighting in the English department got so bad that they were unable to appoint a chairman. The University administration essentially put the department in receivership, and appointed someone from Political Science (I think) to be the acting chairman. Then it went out and hired an outsider to come in and be chairman (although it was someone who had gotten tenure at Columbia and been hired away by another university for big bucks).</p>
<p>The English department was too big to be allowed to die, but I gather the whole process was not pretty. Life is tough in those zero-sum fields where the only things to fight about are prestige and the attention of a dwindling number of students! Better to find a niche where consulting gets compensated well!</p>
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That being said, I've come to the conclusion that the pursuit of a prestige school is so ingrained in the psyche of most college-oriented parents that it clouds their thinking, making it very hard to seriously question the "value proposition" of spending close to $200K for a 4-year education at a private college.
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OK, I keep replying and deleting my reply to posts like this because I can't get the tone right ... screw the concerns about the tone. IF I was considering paying more for a top 20 school to buy "prestige" I would agree with your argument ... however your argument is irrelevant to me because prestige is irrelevant to me. </p>
<p>I personally believe, that for SOME kids, that going to top 20 school will be a better learning environment than other schools. So I agree there is a value proposition to be considered but it not paying for pretige but paying for a better learning environment. I did not say the local State U, or the State U honor's program, or that top 100 school that offered merit aid would not provide a terrific learning opportunity but that it is possiible that that the top 20 school would be even better for some kids ... and if that is true than I am faced with a value proposition decision. Three scenarios stand out to me ... First, high potential kids who might gravitate to the not as motivated typical student in some bigger State U situations. Second, kids drawn to unique great fit situation ... I would claim anyone who tries to equate any non top tier program/school with MIT for math/science types has never spent anytime at MIT or with it's students ... other schools may provide a great math/science education but for those who love MIT when they visit it I would consider paying the incremental bucks for a truly life altering experience for them. Finally, kids who want to attend a school where the focus on learning and achievement tends to be higher than at some other environment where there are certainly many like minded souls but where they form a smaller percentage of the population than typically found at a top 20 school. </p>
<p>I assume I'll get flamed for being a snob about the top 20 schools ... that's OK I truly believe for SOME kids they might be the best choice. Ultimately what I find frustrating in these discussions is many posters resisting the idea that the top schools might actually be better for some kids (what you're buying is prestige ... this other program is just as good) while I would bet the majority of these same posters given equal cost would advocate the top 20 school as better educational choice for SOME kids.</p>
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I assume I'll get flamed for being a snob about the top 20 schools ... that's OK I truly believe for SOME kids they might be the best choice.
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<p>You won't get flamed by me. I am a graduate of a Big Ten state university. I am CONSIDERING--that's the key word--encouraging my son to apply not only there, but also to some of the most selective, high-list-price colleges in the country. Those colleges have interesting financial aid policies, and it will be interesting to see how they compare for out-of-pocket cost to my alma mater (which now uses "merit scholarships" to attract top students much more aggressively than it did when I went there). It's my son's decision, but I'm not going to decry anyone's choice to take a look at what the famous, reputedly expensive colleges have to offer.</p>
<p>No suggestion was made, or intended, in my post that consideration of a top 20 school is somehow misguided. Such a scenario is fine, and in many cases ideal, for many students. My point was simply to suggest to worried parents that they are not, in my humble view, engaging in child abuse by contemplating the prospect of NOT going that way. (Going out into the world with tens of thousands of dollars in school loans may be a far worse fate for some kids.) </p>
<p>In the course of my college discussions with friends in the same boat (with a high school senior), I became increasingly surprised at the resistance to the notion of the $180K+ college experience. These are affluent, intelligent and well-educated guys/women themselves who had done the calculus and were having a tough time rationalizing the cost. </p>
<p>Incidentally, when I applied to college 30 years ago, Penn State (main campus in University Park) was the safety schools of all safety schools. Everyone applied there as it was an automatic admission, but none of my buddies who were serious students would even consider going there. 30 years later getting into Penn State-University Park is a relatively tough admission. Lots of kids with solid credentials go to a branch campus before heading to UP after two years. The standards have gone up dramatically as parents have sought a quality, and relarively low cost, alternative to private colleges. That's a well functioning market at work. </p>
<p>My only point is this ... for those that have been conditioned to the "Top 20 or Bust" view of college shopping, my only point is that it is prudent, wise, and acceptable to question the value proposition of Private vs. Public.</p>
<p>S is at a top 10 school, but he did not apply with any notion of prestige or any consideration of job prospects. Indeed, he was warned away from the school because its notoriously low GPA's in many concentrations make getting into med school more of a challenge (which he wanted to keep as an option). He chose the school because of the intellectual challenge and its core curriculum. Sometimes a school just fits for a student. He did not even bother applying to many other top schools because he felt they were not the right place for him, he really did not care about notoriety or prestige or eventual job. He is now well into his 2nd year, and it has been everything and more that he dreamed of. It has been worth every nickel to see his growth and success. Knowing this, I would have found a way to pay double what the school charges in tuition. This is true even if he never goes to medical school and decides to become a starving artist or an auto mechanic. While being educated is relevant to jobs and income, jobs and income are irrelevant to being educated. Being educated is the only goal that matters for our family, the rest is inconsequential, and wherever my kids find that will result in that outcome, State U or a well known private, large university or small LAC is fine with me.</p>
<p>Don't confuse Selection effect with Treatment effect.</p>
<p>Women who are selected by the Elite Model's agency don't make great models because of their affiliation with the agency.... they were preselected to be tall, thin, gorgeous, etc. The agency can teach them much or nothing and it won't matter much at all... they were preselected to be successful models.</p>
<p>People who graduate from boot camp make good soldiers. As long as they are generally healthy, fit aprox. height and weight standards, and can understand instruction in english.... the Armed Forces can teach them everything they need to know about becoming a soldier (or at least a grunt.... everything else requires a higher level of skill). So- the Army doesn't spend too much time on its selection process-- age, height, high school graduate, no criminal convictions..... you're in, and they'll make you a soldier.</p>
<p>Seems to me that a lot of you are confusing the two in the discussion of the relative merits of different schools. If your kid is already outstanding.... nobody is suggesting that by attending local U or nearby U your kid will come out less outstanding so stop the elitist flames-- we all know dozens of successful people who graduated from State U's or no-name U's.</p>
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Being educated is the only goal that matters for our family, the rest is inconsequential...
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<p>I take a very different position. I believe my kids could become well-educated & never officially matriculate at a college. By reading, attending lectures, auditing courses, and seeking a wide variety of life experiences they could achieve a wonderful education. However, I expect them to choose a college as part of a well thought out plan. If they are uncertain about career goals at age 17, which is likely, then I'll want them to attend a university with oodles of options. I don't find the starving artist idea very appealing, and neither would they. I vote for well-fed artists.</p>
<p>I have been reading "October Sky" - it begins with a quote from Wehrner von Braun (not necessarily one of my favorite people, but still -</p>
<p>"All one can really leave one's children is what's inside their heads. Education, in other words, and not earthly possessions, is the ultimate legacy, the only thing that cannot be taken away."</p>
<p>Becoming educated and acquiring a profession aren't quite the same thing. The later is important because we need money to live. The former can perhaps help us to live well.</p>
<p>Yes, one can become highly educated and never logically piece together that education and turn it into a profession. In our home, we expect the kids to take that second step & either follow a pre-determined career progression or cobble together their skills & strengths & passions so they can make a living.</p>
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I believe my kids could become well-educated & never officially matriculate at a college. By reading, attending lectures, auditing courses, and seeking a wide variety of life experiences they could achieve a wonderful education.
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This is the route I took, it took longer than 4 years; I never completed a degree on a campus until I went to graduate school. When I got to grad school I found my classmates (Ivy-like or state U grads) were no better educated than I. While it can be done without, it is probably a little more efficient to actually go to school :) . Even as a graduate student I never gave a thought to a job or what I would be doing. I just enjoyed the learning, attending seminars in areas far away from my own and soaking up the intellectual ambience. They had to pry me out of my doctoral program with a crowbar. That experience has prepared me for happiness regardless of the work I did, or the amount of money I made or didn't make, and I have had many different careers. I have always wanted my kids to have the opportunity to feel that exhilaration, and bring that to their job, whatever that will be.</p>
<p>The "good/cheap" public university's answer to "prestige/expensive" private college is the Honors Program. </p>
<p>Take 100 to 500 kids in each class who could have gone to any top elite college in the country; give them luxury accomodations within their own community, including maid service, single dorm rooms, private parking, social events, classrooms within dorms, etc. Give them the best teachers, tiny class sizes, personalized advising, special classes, research, enrichment opportunities only available to them, and the opportunity to network with world renown scientists, writers, and other leaders. Give this to them at a public university price. </p>
<p>We're turning it down for a small LAC, but if that would be a financial hardship for us, we would definitely be looking into the honors college option.</p>
<p>My son's dorm. UF. They come in and empty trash, vacuum the carpets (carpeted dorm room), clean the vanities, and the bathroom. I have never seen such an immaculate dorm.</p>
<p>Edit- I probably should not have said the honors students could have gone to any college in the country.</p>
<p>FYI, mom son's friend is in the honors program at UCF. They have a set up with 4 private bedrooms, connected to their own "sitting room" and bath. Also they have their own parking space (not just parking lot, parking space).</p>
<p>Again, great you guys live in states with universities which have enjoyed that level of public support. For lots and lots of people (and we also pay taxes) the "honors program" consists of a Freshman advisor and early registration privileges.</p>
<p>Actually, the registration privileges are pretty important at Ohio State - it's much easier to emerge in 4 years if you can actually take your courses when you are supposed to take them. Kudos to states that properly fund their higher education systems.</p>
<p>UF also accepts out of state students. Chances are if you have outstanding stats, you'd get some kind of scholarship. If not, the OOS tuition is still cheaper than the expensive privates. Another perk of being an honors student- my son has met lots of other students in the program from outside the state.</p>
<p>JHS, there is a robust debate about cause-and-effect for success after attending relatively elite schools. Such schools tend to attract superior students with all the background and talent to be highly successful, hence success post-graduation is arguably more a function of that, not the "value added" they received at the elite institution.</p>
<p>Hence, the "evidence of the ongoing value of a prestige undergraduate degree" is quite arguable. Is it the kid, or the school? It's clearly a combination of both, but I believe the quality of the raw material mariculating at the school is the bulk of the equation.</p>