<p>hvcc: I'm puzzled by your response. Did I ever say anything different? There are three themes, and really only three themes, that I've been harping on in this thread:</p>
<p>-- There's no economic case for paying significantly more for Harvard vs. a good state U. You did a good summary of that argument; I agreed with all of it. If Harvard is "better", it's not in a way that produces more economic success down the road, and not in a way that's universally true for everyone.</p>
<p>-- Given the foregoing, I am surprised by how few people actually turn down Harvard or Yale to go to a good state U. One way or another, the "market" perceives a lot of value there, more value than can be demonstrated objectively.</p>
<p>-- It is not accurate to say that state U honors programs are full of people who turned down Harvard or Yale, or who would have been admitted if they had applied. Many programs probably have a few of each, and they are full of kids with stats similar to those of the HYP students, but that's not quite the same thing.</p>
<p>"It is not accurate to say that state U honors programs are full of people who turned down Harvard or Yale, or who would have been admitted if they had applied. Many programs probably have a few of each, and they are full of kids with stats similar to those of the HYP students, but that's not quite the same thing."
I agree with this - but I think the trend is different if we look just one level below on the prestige scale. As the quality and funding of honors programs improve,and the outcomes of the students are measured, I think we'll see more and more students making the choice to attend. Perhaps not the HYP admits - but more the Cornell, Penn and other top 25 admits. My son knows many students in his honors program who turned down schools in this range. I think this will continue, especially as we march through the next few years of this "bubble". It's a good choice for many (not all) students.<br>
The draw of HYP is huge - so I don't see the statistics changing much in the future.</p>
<p>JHS--re your third point--what about a 3rd category: the people who applied to HYP but didn't get in just because HYP can't accept them all? The Ivy adcoms assure us that for 10,000 apps they get, probably 9,000 would be successful and the slimmest of margins, the luck of the the draw or even the mood of the committee that day separates the accepted ones from the not. They assure us they would love to accept most of the applicants...but of course cannot.</p>
<p>I realize there is a lot of overlap in this group b/c these students tend to apply to more than one Ivy, but there are surely a lot of students who have to end up somewhere else...whether next tier privates or honors programs at State Uni.</p>
<p>All of this just points out "To each his/her own..."</p>
<p>I think my son is in one of the best honors programs in the entire US (public or private) with not only early registration, an air-conditioned single, great merit money, etc., etc., but also individualized one-on-one instruction with professors, access to graduate courses - even as a freshman, no prerequisites for any course at the university, financial support for summer projects and some of the most personal oversight you'd get anywhere at any school.</p>
<p>I agree totally with what blossom and others have said: the people graduating from the Elites are preselected, and their success in later life has much more to do with the student than with the NAME of the college. Of course, what helps that success is the resources the college is willing/able to give the student. And some relatively lesser-known schools are willing/able to give more than you can imagine.</p>
Well said! The only thing I'd add is that sometimes the elite-college name cuts through some red tape -- I think that people end up where their talent and effort leads them, but some shortcuts are available. Sometimes the shortcut is through a program like what Digmedia describes.</p>
<p>Well, I guess I'll get to find out what I really think of this question. My son just called to tell me that he got an (unsolicited) offer of a substantial merit scholarship from the great state U to whose honors college he has been admitted. I didn't know they gave merit scholarships to out-of-state kids; what I've read on CC led me to believe they didn't.</p>
<p>I didn't think that there would be a significant cost differential for us between this school and the (slightly) more prestigious private universities to which he (hypothetically, but not impossibly) might be admitted come April. My son is thrilled, of course. He is ready to sign up right now, just because no one not related to him has ever told him they loved him this much.</p>
<p>So now I get to mull this over, too. How significant is significant? What are the real differences? I'll let you know where we come out . . . Maybe we'll get lucky and all the relevant schools to which he has applied will reject him!</p>
<p>Before you make the final decision - look hard, and listen.</p>
<p>When my son and I visited a free ride plus stipend-offering university (total cost 0, plus $12K to the good over the four years), although the honors program had an excellent reputation, it was clear that 65% of his classes would have been in the greater (large) university. The program would have alleviated the huge-ness of the university somewhat, but it still reminded me of Mammy in Gone with the Wind "nuthin' but a mule in horse harness!"</p>
<p>There are great programs out there, definitely (posters have described them) but none of the schools offering full tuition, even the very good ones, stacked up against my son's first choice. We ended up paying full retail price and signing up for a minimum of three round trip airfares across the Atlantic every year. He's in his second year now and for us, it was absolutely the right decision - high cost, but demonstrating an even greater value - I like to put it this way, he's receiving MORE than we're paying for.</p>
<p>Believe me, I really agonized over this decision - but have no regrets. Please feel free to PM me, any parent who is sufffering with the mental torment of a similar choice.</p>
<p>Well, discussing this with my mother last night, I learned two things I had never known:</p>
<p>(1) She chose Mills College over Radcliffe because they gave her a full ride scholarship (and against the wishes of her mother and grandfather, the latter of whom would have been all too happy to pay for Radcliffe). I knew she had chosen Mills rather than Radcliffe; I never knew that she did it because of a scholarship.</p>
<p>(2) She has never expressed any regret about that decision (in part because she went to graduate school at Harvard, which she loved). But last night, she told me for the first time that she started, but didn't finish, a transfer application to Cornell in her sophmore year. Her friends at Cornell had seemed much more sophisticated than her Mills classmates when she saw them over Christmas break -- much more au courant about current trends in politics and philosophy, and half of them Communists, which she thought was the height of chic.</p>
<p>You may have no regrets and should not. On the other hand I have had and knwn students who turned down Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Duke, Penn,and MIT to take big scholarships at places like UNC (Morehead), Emory, WashU, Caltech, Case and schools such as Arizona State, UNC (Morehead), Case, Tulane, Michigan, Berkeley and other state schools. I know of only one who questioned his decison afterward and that was freshman year. After that he was happy. As others have said. This is a highly personal decison.</p>
<p>With a S who is a senior in HS, I have had several conversations with people about the 1st choice school v. the very substantial scholarship school. </p>
<p>Without any exception, those who made the scholarship decision (all but 1 out of 7 people) told me that they felt a true sense of personal accomplishment and pride that they had been able to take care of the bulk of their education costs rather than continue to rely on the finances of their parents. That included 3 individuals whose parents had told them that they would make the money available for the 1st choice school. </p>
<p>FWI- those that used the scholarship route where the parents had offered to pay for the 1st choice all said that in the years after college their parents had mentioned to them how much the decision helped the parent see that their child was now grown and would be OK on their own.</p>
<p>I think its important to keep in mind that where the student is able to make their own decision -- free from parental pressure -- the student is likely to make a decision in accordance with their own instincts and values. So one reason for the satisfaction felt down the line is that the student has gone with the school that best fits their already internalized sense of what is important to them. A kid who values his independence highly, and/or is very cautious about spending money, is likely to strike the balance in favor of saving money, probably going to be much happier taking the full ride scholarship -- and may struggle with a sense of guilt if the more expensive route is chosen.</p>
<p>On the other hand, the kid who more highly regards perceived quality in education; or who is very ambitious; or who is motivated by prestige; or who is highly competitive and wants what he sees as the "best", might be very unhappy if he has the sense that he has had to settle for less because of finances -- he is more likely to opt for the college he perceives as better or more demanding, and feel that anything less is letting himself and his parents down. So whereas one kid has a sense of pride in saving money - the other derives pride in the sense of accomplishment of attending the prized school.</p>
<p>Of course, we raised our own kids, so it is very likely that they share our values -- but the point is, the feelings at the end of the process probably reflect the feelings at the beginning, and families should not feel pressured by what others think they ought to do.</p>
<p>I would note that all is not black-and-white. Whether shared or not, kids going either route are likely to have mixed feelings. My kids have found that at the elite schools, there is some tension between their own need to economize and live on their own earnings, vs. the lifestyle and habit of the very large number of kids from very privileged backgrounds at those schools -- and I think while they have found the elite academics extremely rewarding, the adjustment to campus life and overall social fit has been a lot more tenuous. So I do think that one factor to be added to the mix is a consideration of issues like campus diversity and social environment -- even if the kid goes for a more expensive college, that might help in choosing which one. (For example, my daughter is probably better off in an urban environment where there are other less upscale colleges around -- I don't think it's an accident that while she is at Barnard, she has become close to friends attending colleges like CUNY).</p>
<p>I think when you're talking about tens of thousands of dollars, maybe as much as $150,000+, it should really be a family decision, unless the money doesn't matter that much (in which case . . . ).</p>
<p>Of course, we raised our own kids, so it is very likely that they share our values -- but the point is, the feelings at the end of the process probably reflect the feelings at the beginning</p>
<p>calmom-- One male HS senior had both parents who went to a large state school, Texas Tech (met there and married), but the parents moved to Dallas and had their family and raised their children in Dallas. The parents always talked about how much they enjoyed Tech. </p>
<p>The parents did very well financially. They sent S to a very focused (and expensive) college-prep school in Dallas. The parents had repeatedly expressed a desire that he attend a certain prestige college. You know the drill, they bought him a sweatshirt with the college's name, took him to visit over the years, hyped it with some frequency. Assumed that was where he'd go.</p>
<p>S came home one day in early spring of his senior year and handed them a letter. It was from Texas Tech. He was a National Merit Finalist and had listed Tech as his 1st choice. Tech offerred him full ride and he accepted. The letter confirmed all this.</p>
<p>Once the parents read the letter, the young man said he recalled in middle school they had mentioned a trust fund his grandparents had established for him with money that could be used for college if it was needed. He said that he'd like to know who the administrator was because he'd taken care of paying for college and wanted to see when the money became his.</p>
<p>Mother apparently freaked and it took a few days for the dad to see the humor. That young adult will do just fine. FWI-- the mother got over it eventually. I have been told the young man is doing very well at Tech.</p>
<p>Well, 07Dad, it sounds like those parents raised their kid with a kind of mixed message, and he happened to lean toward the message with the fond memories of Tech, perhaps also influenced by the fact that his parents had found each other there. 'Do as I say and not as I do" is a hard sell when it comes to childrearing. "Tech was good enough for Mom & Dad, therefore its good enough for me" might make a lot more sense -- especially if the kid's parents seem happy, well-educated, and successful in their respective careers.</p>
<p>JHS, I think the family decision about available funds for college needs to be made before the application process begins. The decision in the sprint needs to be made in the context of the previously determined parameters -- and I think at that point it needs to be made by the kid, even though the reality of admission into a prestige school or the attraction of an unexpected full-ride offer may change the parental perspective as well. Of course if there are changed financial circumstances, that's a different question entirely.</p>
<p>Calmom: Last post is so important. I remember a student who had parents who told her she could go anywhere. She took lots of trips and then applied to top schools. She was accepted to many then also offered a full ride to a state school. Parents then said she had to go to the state school. They also decided they wanted to build a bigger house. Daughter was bitter but got over it in college, excelled and went on to do big things. I remember my daughter was in the fifth grade and I had told her that if we could afford it and if she got in and made the case we would figure out a way to send her to were she wanted to go. I remembered that when several years later she wanted to go ED to a top school. Finances had changed but we worked out a deal on what part we would pay. She got scholarships and saved a bunch in summer and has worked in her field at college to make money and although money is tight for her she is keeping her end of the education bargain which was "if you go to a place that costs more each year than my first house, learn as much as you can and get as much out of it as you can" And she is. But do not think that most rational middle class parents do not question the value of something that has gone up more that double the inflation rate for a long time. My wife went to a to 20 private college and at that time could earn half the cost by working summers. No can do now.
Son actually is taking a different tack and may turn down the elite for the money although he has asked " If I take the scholarship can you give me some of the college money you have saved for me to buy a grand piano when I graduate?" Damn we raised a capitalist</p>
<p>...that is by far the best - fewer emotional ripples. I think parents should adopt a flexible attitude (or as flexible as their finances allow) because the "who am I, what do I want, where should I go?" quest is unique to each individual. </p>
<p>I tried to "program" my son to take the 'quality within financial limits' approach. He applied to a number of merit aid-offering schools, but he also applied to non-merit-aid schools. I told him that if he wanted to attend a non-merit aid school, we'd have to consider it carefully and run the actual numbers when we got them. I didn't promise that he could go wherever he wanted without regard to financial considerations. </p>
<p>After the merit offers came in, he re-visited several colleges that he considered to be possible destinations, finally (!) taking the decision process seriously. In our last discussion, the light in his eyes when he talked about his first choice did it for me. </p>
<p>I want to say to parents in the pre-decision cycle that your initial priorities can change. For years before D-Day arrived, I was working my PLAN, based on the 'artistic combination' of quality education with merit aid, like many other parents on CC. But the subjective reality on the Day of Decision - my son's very strong preference, which became clear to him only at the very end of the line - altered my best-laid plans in the blink of an eye.</p>
<p>Thanks yulsie and others for your honesty. Calmom, I agree with the ideal that you state, but I suspect that a lot of decisions happen like yulsie's, or curmudgeon's (who said that he was willing to sell a kidney to finance his daughter's big-brand-name option, until she finally decided to let him off the hook). </p>
<p>I know for myself I don't have hard and fast financial parameters -- or I do, but they are on the outer edges. In between, there's a big cost-benefit calculation. Largely that's up to my children in the first instance, but I wouldn't pretend that I will feel equally good about my role in financing all choices.</p>