Prestige/Expensive vs. Good/Cheap

<p>From my perspective, you should not pay for college if there are any foreseeable circumstance where it could ever make you dependant on your kids financially. Even if you can afford to pay the full ride, set an amount that you are willing to pay. There is something gratifying as a student about having paid some of the costs. You might also try the novel approach of asking your son or daughter about which school they prefer, if they have to pay for some of the costs. After all, whose life is it?</p>

<p>07--I asked my D the same thing. When we were discussing money and I told her how much of her money she would have to contribute...I could see her starting to rethink this issue and what possible plans she has for the future. Now we are going to revisit one of the schools this weekend to be sure it will be worth the sacrifices.</p>

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From my perspective, you should not pay for college if there are any foreseeable circumstance where it could ever make you dependant on your kids financially.

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<p>For some reason that reminds me of a passage from a Steven Jay Gould book that went something like, 'Nothing in the dinosaurs' genes or past or current environment could have predicted that comet." Or stated differently in the title of David Raup's excellent book, "Extinction: Bad Genes or Bad Luck." I guess the "foreseeing" part is the real trick.</p>

<p>mommusic...the schools usually take the fact that you have 4 kids in college. If say they think you can pay 40k a year, and you have 4 kids in college, then each will only have to pay 10k....of course, I did say everyone's circumstanes are different, but so many parents I've met drive porsches but think 40k a year is too expensive.</p>

<p>Jack, we didn't pay for MIT expecting all those brilliant kids out there to get our son off the couch and into a lab. MIT's standards are high; the professors and deans set the standards..... the kids just have to meet them. I'm sorry if I'm perpetuating a stereotype that you find objectionable.... but it's also naive to assume that anyone who pays full freight at a private school is a dope who has been suckered through shrewd marketing and price gouging. </p>

<p>Some of the top schools got that way because they have strict requirements on the way in, even stricter requirements to get out, and pretty high quality control all the way through. I applaud the smart, talented kids who can excel without that, but come meet the Sports Management majors or Mass Communication kids in my neighborhood who have recently graduated from our State U. Not clear exactly what standard of literacy and competency was used when determining that they qualified for a Bachelor's degree.</p>

<p>My kid isn't a rocket scientist, but having taken two semesters of physics (after two full years in High school), one of Chem, Bio, one full year of the post-calculus math sequence, and 8 required classes in the humanities (with distribution requirements to make sure that he could read critically, write succinctly, and had a command of English literature) he has met some minimum standard of both scientific and humanistic literacy, in addition to fulfilling the requirements of his major.</p>

<p>I don't believe that State U's are filled with slackers and partyers. Nor do I believe that I stuck some hapless kid at MIT with the responsiblity of elevating my son's work ethic and standards of personal best. Plain and simple-- if you don't show up for lecture, attend section, join a study group, do your problem-sets, show up at the professor's office hours if you didn't understand something.... you are going to fail. </p>

<p>I don't think we were suckers for encouraging him to try to get admitted, and then try to cut it an environment like that, especially since it was his idea in the first place. His choice to go, his choice to come home. But we got our money's worth with the quality of the teaching, the caliber of the faculty, the extra help when needed, and the abundant work and research opportunities that got thrown his way. The intellectual level of his classmates was just the icing on the cake.</p>

<p>I did an interesting thing with my daughter. I told her that I had money saved for her college that would cover her costs at most schools. I also told her that if she did not spend it in college that I would give it to her after college over a period of years. Finally, I said that except for extreme cases the choice would be hers. With the cost of college being so extreme I beleive that a search for value is wise at this time. She has embraced that and has applied to several schools, looking for a good balance between cost and other values. It also seems to be a good learning experience for life.</p>

<p>blossom: I have no idea what state you're living in, so I have no idea how bad your state university is. As I stated before, those top public flagship universities are, I can believe, quite different from what your neighbors' kids might be experiencing. </p>

<p>Our daughter also had lots of choices of which school to attend, among a list of some very fine schools. Certainly, had we been living in a state with a less than stellar public university, I know she would not have chosen it over those other schools to which she was admitted (4 of which were ranked among the top 10 in the nation). I don't think she would have been interested, and--as brilliant, capable, and self-motivated as she is (I say without hesitation)-- we would not have wanted her to go to a less than stellar school-- public or private. </p>

<p>I do think you make a lot of assumptions, however, and paint a very black and white, either/or picture. MIT is obviously a very fine school; however, that does not mean that every other school out there is filled with the "average," the "slackers," or is lacking in high caliber professors, poor teaching quality, lack of research opportunities, or intellectual rigor. This is certainly not true in our daughter's case--far from it--and she attends a top public university. In fact, the opportunities and the experiences she has had since being there, are nothing short of outstanding--just very impressive--in every regard. (I will also add that the teaching quality and high caliber of the faculty are also exceptional.)</p>

<p>So the wonderful experiences your son has at MIT are simply not limited only to that school (or to the Ivy's). Truly--they aren't. ;)</p>

<p>Jack, I'm thrilled for your daughter and you are preaching to the converted that there are wonderful educational opportunities out there all over the country.</p>

<p>But again.... I'll take a wild leap of faith and assume that you don't live in New Hampshire, New Mexico, Montana, South Dakota (I could keep going but I won't.... we both know the drill.) Apologies to everyone out there with kids at these schools-- I'm sure your kids are taking advantage of every opportunity. However, the fact that there are 5-6 state U's that are arguably as good as, or better than, the top private universities in the world is fantastic for the kids who live in those states. The fact that there are another 8-10 state U's which are equivalent in quality to many of the top 30 privates is equally fantastic for the residents of those states, and kids lucky enough to qualify for in-state tuition due to reciprocity arrangements or what have you.</p>

<p>And then we have the other 35 states. There are brilliant and hardworking kids at every single State U and Community college across the country, but you'd have to marshall a lot more evidence than just your daughter and the list of Rhodes scholars from less well known state schools to prove the point you seem to be trying to make here. You've got no argument from me if you're talking about UVA and its ilk.... clearly equal to or better than the best of the privates. But there are lots of states out there and we pay taxes too. I don't see it as black and white- but the OP's question posed the dichotomy, not me.</p>

<p>So to answer the OP's original question... yeah, there are a lot of us out there who live in states where the U's get short-shrift, and for us, the calculation to send our kids to a private U feels like the right one. If your kid is interested in nanotechnology or biotech or advanced materials science, or whatever, you may find it worthwhile to check out the facilities at your local public U before you conclude that the quality is virtually the same everywhere. In some states, the public U's are underfunded, charge relatively high tuition, and have not invested in academics.... general funding has gone for new sports stadiums, fancy dorms and amenities, and a couple of superstar professors (who are indeed superstars) but may not help if they're not in your child's field of interest. So- your mileage may vary.</p>

<p>The one thing I remember from a social psychology class in college is the notion that, "attitude follows behavior." It is human nature for people to think that the choices they have made are best. Those who have kids at great public U's can describe all of the great opportunities their kids have had. The point remains, however, that the the publics produce many more graduates each year than just the 8 Ivy's. Therefore, graduates of the most prestigious schools in this country are a limited commodity. Some businesses really do value the name of the school, whether or not that's justified by the academics. </p>

<p>Living in the Boston area, I can tell you that an MIT graduate has an easy entry into any number of high tech careers or graduate programs. There are many companies who offer special internships for MIT students, and the degree just opens doors in a way that graduates of other schools don't experience. The issue isn't whether or not that's valid -- it's just the way it is. The OP is questioning whether or not there is a financial justification for choosing the more prestigious school. It's difficult to answer, but for many students it really is a good decision.</p>

<p>There clearly are many on CC who believe that the cost effective option of UNC is the better route. What is interesting to me is how this conclusion compares with the Revealed Preference study that is often cited on CC. A top private like HYPSM wins a very high % of the cross admit battles over even the best state universities. Parents naturally want to do the best they can for their children. Meanwhile, the education establishment and certain schools have created such brand value for the top privates, particularly the Ivies, that admittees feel that they cannot possibly turn down the prestigious offer. Some of this may be justified, but it would probably take a very secure family and/or student to turn down HYPSM for UNC-CH. I wish you the best with your choice. </p>

<p>My only advice has been offered many times-don't break into your retirement accounts to pay for college. You have to draw the line somewhere.</p>

<p>blossom: No need to "take a wild leap of faith." I've posted here on this thread, and elsewhere, that we live in NC, same state as the OP. My only reason for posting here is the OP's original question and the dilemma she posed, which is, in fact, between UNC-CH (one of those top 5 ranked publics) and an unnamed private school, described as "expensive and prestigious." </p>

<p>As I stated before--yes, I can believe that there are plenty of states where the state universities are underfunded and get "short shrift," and that's a shame. We are, indeed, fortunate that we live in a state where the legislators and powers-that-be saw early on that pouring money into the NC public university system should be (and continues to remain) a top priority. We're, indeed, fortunate that we have the Research Triangle Park sitting right in the middle of 3 major universities, and including 2 major university medical centers/teaching hospitals (which ultimately offer great opportunities for these local university students as well).</p>

<p>So, yes, I completely understand your perspective. The OP's son's choices, however, are very different from your own son's, and not so black and white.</p>

<p>blossom, you mention biotech & advanced materials sciences. Much of the reason industry turns to certain universities to offer co-ops & industry/education partnerships is simply convenient location. NJ is a leader in pharmaceutical & various high tech fields. Many NJ corporations have fabulous programs in place with Rutgers & NJIT, neither of which is considered a prestigous school. Both schools have been incredibly flexible in working with industry, and governmental offices facilitate the partnerships. Those graduates have a big advantage because of their choice research & co-op credentials. Often prestige is just a perception.</p>

<p>Sticker, I work in corporate HR and over the last two decades have hired thousands of new college grads. You are wrong if you don't consider Rutgers prestigious.... and not just for Pharma. Very highly regarded U in both humanities and engineering.</p>

<p>I would argue your point that prestige is just a perception.... for example, U Missouri at Rolla is one of my favorite schools for mechanical engineering. I don't think it's a school that gets a lot of play on CC, and certainly doesn't get a lot of publicity "out there' in college perception-land, but if you polled the hiring managers at a dozen industrial corporations (not talking Missouri.... but nationally) in the Fortune 50 I have no doubt that Rolla would be in the top 10. This isn't perception.... this is reality.</p>

<p>Similarly, I have colleagues who work in recruiting for insurance companies, and the list of schools they consider tops for things like actuarial science might not be schools with the "prestige". They don't care.... they network among deans and professors, they know the rigor of the programs, they know how well-prepared the kids are coming out and what the typical pass rate is for various sections of the actuarial exams.</p>

<p>Jack, sorry I missed that you're a NC resident. Your daughter sounds like a terrific kid and you've got a lot of reasons to be proud of her.</p>

<p>blossom, I guess it's our definitions of prestige that are different. I agree 100% that industry knows what programs produce the grads that can easily be slotted into their needed spots. Yet these colleges can be unknown to the general public. That's what I meant by prestige: household names. And that name recognition may be meaningless to a recruiter who has learned over the years that "cow college" has a terrific XYZ program & their grads have been some of our best hires, so go find more.</p>

<p>Graduates of NJIT, for example, account for over 25% of all engineers working in NJ. That's an astounding number, given the high tech climate here, where grads from all over the country are seeking jobs. It's a gritty, working-class type school in a less than desirable location. But the grads are not being held back by that fact.</p>

<p>I'm going to guess your kid wants to study astrophysics (call it a hunch), going to UNC-Chapel Hill is no shameful thing. Furthermore, going to schools like MIT/CalTech certainly have their benefits, but the importance of science degree rest on the graduate works. Your kid has plenty of chance to attend one of those school for his/her Ph.D which you don't have to pay for since those schools are ridiculous generous in term of fellowship for Ph.D candidate.</p>

<p>Thanks Reddune. As I've acknowledged, I know we're in an enviable position, and I'm sure the right decision will be made after we gather in all the info from all 5 colleges she's applied to. As a sidenote, it's interesting that many posters throughout this thread have assumed my astrophysics-bound kid is a son ... My daughter and I have had a good laugh on this!</p>

<p>astrophysicsmom: Just so you know we're not <em>all</em> gender-biased out here, especially with regard to the sciences . . . your very first post was (deliberately?) ambiguous, labeling your student only as S/D. Since S was the letter used first, I just went with "son." ;)</p>

<p>Blossom said it best. Many companies hire from the colleges where they know first hand about the quality of the recruits they are getting. I remember many years ago a friend at Deere & Co. said he would rather hire someone out of Wisconsin-Platteville than any Ivy League school unless the HYP recruit came from a rural area. He wanted employees who knew the value of his business.</p>

<p>No school is worth more than what I pay now $4.5K a year, and thats a state school.</p>

<p>The Washington Post published an article on Sunday, 1/28, on the first page of its business section: "Forget Yale - Go State: Shocking Prices Force a Reality Check on Families' College Plans." You have to register w/the newspaper on-line to read it. The articles discusses saving strategies, tax breaks, and re-thinking the whole process of where to apply.....</p>