Prestige/Expensive vs. Good/Cheap

Parents Forum
121

<p>Forget what environment will stimulate your 18 year old--perhaps the difference is in what environment you find stimulating as a 50 year old.</p>

<p>For me, having lived on four continents as well as in four major US metropolitan areas, I find that, apart from living in Manhattan, living adjacent to an academic community is the best environment for me in the US. I've never lived next to a flagship state university in the US, but living next to a private university in the US puts you in the neighborhoods of some pretty heady folks. And I like that. I like having friends who are doing amazing research. I like hanging out with world reknowned writers and poets. I like having dinner with the creme de la creme of the humanities profession. I like meeting and befriending immigrant academics. I like working with them as clients. Tell me something I don't already know. That makes me happy. </p>

<p>Plus, as a globe trotter myself, I am most comfortable with Americans who have lived somewhere else. I like that global perspective. Just a preference, but it is my preference. That's the highly stimulating social environment I seek for myself. Personally, I don't find that stimulation in provincial environments --where everyone has grown up in the same conditions and quotes the same newspapers. </p>

<p>You may label me 'deficient' jack, for not being able to make my own fun in any group, just as you are attempting to label students who prefer private u's. Labelling those who are different is a common attribute of provincial societies--and another reason I find provincial societies difficult to live in.</p>

<p>FWIW, I know a brilliant student who accepted a UNC honors college place over many Ivy acceptances. I think it was a mistake. 80% of her friends stayed in NC while she went on to Manhattan. In my opinion, there was a negative impact on her post-UNC life.</p>

<p>I'm not saying state colleges are universally a poor choice but I am saying that state colleges are not the right choice for some students.</p>

122

<p>Well, if you were living near Penn you could have been rubbing elbows with the very influencial Prof. Rafael Robb esteemed expert in game theory in Penns economics dept. Of course, now you would have to meet him in jail as he is accused of bludgeoning his wife to death. But ,hey, he did live in Israel, did great research and wrote lots of papers! I won't even start on the 7 other Penn profs. and their recent jail time. Sorry, I couldn't help myself.</p>

<p>My brilliant son is at Penn State, kicking up his heels, meeting all sorts of awesome people, being challenged inside the classroom and out and trying to figure out how to fit all the cool stuff he wants to do and learn into 4 years. His ultimate goal: to be a philanthropist. Go figure.</p>

<p>So he is going to PSU... for free. Could have gone to Duke, Swarthmore, Cornell and a host of others. Mistake? Not on your life :)</p>

123

<p>Sometimes the most surprising and unexpected kind of provincialism is exhibited by the most sophisticated cosmopolitans….</p>

124

<p>cheers:
here we go again. :-) You admit that you've never lived next to a state flagship, how can you judge? I don't recall any labelling of the STUDENTS being done by jack, but I think he labelled YOU, and was absolutely correct. You are a snob. It's allright, I was one myself, before life experiences tought me better. I see that some people stay this way forever.</p>

125

<p>cheers is only voicing what several others feel but are tired of getting flamed for saying:). For some people, highly selective privates will be the best possible experience. And she has a particularly no-nonsense tone, which I for one, enjoy. Kind of reminds me of House.</p>

126

<p>Hmm, maybe that's why I don't like House. I personally find cheers's tone bordering on parody. I keep thinking, she CAN'T be writing this with the straight face, she MUST be pulling our collective virtual leg.</p>

127

<p>Cheers--yours is an interesting point of view. Funny, in our situation, the issue of where the kids will live after college has never played a part in college choices/discussions. Since she/we have lived all over the U.S., and travelled internationally, I have never even considered that D would stay in NC after school. I expect regardless of where she goes to undergrad, she'll end up in Boston, LA, or Chicago (or some other non-NC place) for grad school. I know it's different for a family that has always been in one place--we're more nomadic. I'm just thinking that the $140K+ that we'd save if she goes to UNC for undergrad would send us all on some pretty spectacular travels.....Just doing my motherly wondering of whether she'd be totally ruining her life by having her experience Boston life as a 21-yr-old grad student, and not as an 18-yr-old undergrad.</p>

128

<p>Like Alumother, I understand what Cheers is saying. I don't see it as presenting a "superior" attitude -- she's just calling it as she sees it. </p>

<p>One advantage of any selective private college over any state U is the geographic diversity represented. It's hard to argue that there are no advantages in getting to know people from all corners of the earth. For example, my son's friends are literally from the four corners of the US and also Asia. His college has 96% from out of state, or something. He traveled to China over winter break, which I'm sure would never have happened if he had attended a different school.</p>

129

<p>cheers, i spent 5 yrs as an undergrad at Ohio State(5 yr engineering program in those days) and about 6 yrs as a grad student at Cornell. Based on my experience the intellectual atmosphere on each campus was very similar. And like anything worthwhile you merely had to do a bit of searching. </p>

<p>My thing has always been classical/jazz music though as a performer I am an absolute dolt. How many 7th graders do you know where the teacher suggested that I turn in my baritone horn!!! But I digress. I would regularly stop by Hughes Hall to look at the schedule of graduate recitals, note them in a notebook and take in 2 or 3 each month between classes.</p>

<p>On a lark, I would attend lectures on subject both in engineering and non-engineering and even went so far as attending a national physics symposium at the Battelle Institute located adjacent to the campus. I had little understanding of the content but found the Q&A's utterly fascinating.</p>

<p>Weedled my way onto the stage crew of the world premire of a Jerome Lawrence & Robert Lee play-The Night Thoreau Spent in Jail thanks to my friend Bruce Villanch.</p>

<p>And I could go on but what is the point?</p>

130

<p>astrophysicsmom - I am sure your D's life will not be ruined:). These decisions are family-by-family. If you felt and she felt that it was highly selective private or sorrow, then that would probably be true. If she has been to UNC and thought, hey, cool!, well, then that is probably true. I really believe that for a kid who has a choice between say, Yale and UNC honors, that they should just enjoy their good fortune that is undoubtedly the result of enormous hard work and relax in one of those situations where there is no bad outcome.</p>

<p>This time I will spare you all my heartfelt memories of why I am glad I went to Princeton.;)</p>

131

<p>OK-- I'll wade in.</p>

<p>I attended both Emory University,"the Harvard of the South," and the University of Texas at Austin, Texas' flagship university. (Please, no Aggie arguments). </p>

<p>The "intellectual" environment at Emory included the theology's school's recent assertion that God is Dead. The student body and faculty somehow "over-looked" the political turmult of the Chicago police at the Democratic convention, the shootings at Kent State, etc. But the Pabst Blue Ribbon was cold.</p>

<p>Shifting to Austin, Earl Campbell and the Longhorns ruled in football. The students were up in arms, the university press was "hot," teachers were getting sacked for their positions on the war, draft and race. Elderage Cleaver (of the Black Panthers) spoke on campus at an authorized event. I think I recall Jane Fonda speaking, but some things are a little blurry.</p>

<p>My point is that you get out of a college or university what you put into it. Is prestige "worth it" over cost? Its really a matter of what the young adult who is going to be the student will do with the oportunities that exist at either place. If the student wants intellectual stimulation, and will put himself into findng and joining in with others who value it, this is available in both prestige and flagship experiences.</p>

132

<p>I know I for one am experiencing a lot less of Boston life as a 22-year-old grad student than I did as an 18-year-old college student. (And a lot less of life in general. Insert pathetic sigh.) :)</p>

<p>I think it's worth considering what your daughter's future career plans might include. If she's interested in possibly staying on the academic career path to the bitter end, I think it's worth it to go to MIT, for both the (significant) extra nudge into graduate school, but also for the early induction into the way academic communities work. As an MIT alum, I feel I (and the other 9 MIT alums in my PhD program) am more comfortable approaching faculty members as peers -- we were treated like grad students as undergrads, so it's only natural for us to be in close intellectual contact with faculty members as grad students. The students in my program who came from large state schools* tend to treat professors more like ceramic statues, and seem to have difficulty disagreeing with them or bantering around crazy ideas.</p>

<p>*Interestingly, there are very few people in my program from top state schools. Mostly those who went to state schools went to non-flagships in non-top-state-school states. I don't know how reliable that data is, but my program does have seventy first-years and is the #1 PhD program in its field.</p>

133

<p>Hmmm, well perhaps Emory isn’t the “Harvard of the South” then.</p>

<p>I think sjmom2329 made an excellent point in noting the social psychology phenomenon that “It is human nature for people to think that the choices they have made are best.” I think it’s a good thing that for the most part we are all very pleased with the choices that we and our children have made regarding college choices. The problem is that our enthusiasm for our choices makes us somewhat defensive. Those of us who’ve sent our kids to the “prestigious” private colleges don’t want to be called chumps or snobs for falling for the lure of the fancy name; those who selected the top notch public universities don’t want to feel that their kids are missing anything that they might have gotten from attending a more selective or “prestigious” college. I think both positions are understandable, but they’re not so helpful to the OP in helping her figure out what’s best for her child.</p>

<p>My D is incredibly happy at Harvard. Would she have been happy and done well at Chapel Hill? Yes, I think so. It’s her nature to adapt and make the most of wherever she is. Would she have had a better experience at UNC? I don’t think so, but we’ll never know for certain. Likewise, for every parent whose kid is thriving at a top state university, as wonderful as that experience may be, he’ll never know if the child’s experience might have been better somewhere else. I think it’s impossible to know how things might have been, and honestly, as long as the child is happy and thriving academically and otherwise, it shouldn’t matter how things might have been somewhere else. That impossibility of knowing is what makes it so hard to advise the OP in this situation. </p>

<p>I think that when people defend their own choices by apparent criticism of other people’s choices, we take it personally, and that really doesn’t help the OP.</p>

134

<p>I just caught up with this thread. </p>

<p>Sorry, Cheers, but I actually don't remember making any comments about you specifically, nor labeling you (or any students). I certainly never labeled you, or anyone, as "deficient." In fact, I don't actually remember this thread focusing on you. (As my family always likes to say to me, "It's not <em>always</em> about YOU, Jack." ;)) I think you need to go back and re-read my posts.</p>

<p>I do, however, remember intimating that-- like parabella--I find your posts "bordering on parody." After your first post, I honestly was not sure if you were being funny or serious. Your posts, especially your first one, reminded me a bit of a Woody Allen character--one of those deadly serious, comically pretentious ones that he draws so well. </p>

<p>Alas, I see now that you are serious. For someone who has lived all over the world and has been around all sorts of people, I am a little surprised by your own provincial attitudes. You are on a slippery slope when you naturally assume that those who might choose a public university flagship over some school in, say, that bastion of intellectualism known as the Northeast, is not well-traveled, hasn't lived other places, hasn't been exposed to those unlike him/her. I think if you traveled outside that rarified circle of yours, you might learn just how ridiculous some of your views sound. Just the idea that you refer to some of your social group as "immigrant academics" I find offensive. I bet they would, too. In fact, I'm married to one. Talk about labeling (and patronizing) people. Whew.</p>

<p>At any rate, I have always agreed with others who say that a student should go where it's the best fit for him/her. My only point in posting was to assure the OP that her daughter would not suffer by attending UNC, if--for whatever reasons--that ultimately became her choice. Personally, I feel that what a student gets out of his/her university experience (wherever that is), is exactly what he/she puts into it--kinda like life. I agree with 07Dad's last paragraph--yes.</p>

135

<p>Here's our experience. </p>

<p>When our son was a freshman in high school, we sat down with him and told him how much we felt we could afford for college. It was less than what the FAFSA said we could afford, but nevertheless we thought it was a generous offer. We told him that he could go to the school of his choice but he would have to work/get loans/scholarships to make up the difference. </p>

<p>Well, last year he applied to 8 schools, all in the $46,000 - $48,000 per year range. We had hoped he would choose at least one or two state schools, but he was determined to attend a "top" university. We're now convinced that he he knew precisely what type of school was best for him - he didn't need our advice in that regard.</p>

<p>We did a lot research to determine what kinds of merit scholarships were available, both independent and university based. In the end, our son chose to apply to 4 schools that give (limited) merit based scholarships and 4 that provide only need-based scholarships. </p>

<p>His top choice schools were in the same Massachusetts town, but he was offered very little needs-based aid at both of them. He was lucky to be offered several full tuitition scholarships (including Duke and the U of Chicago) and decided to take one of them (and graduate without debt).</p>

<p>Would he have been happier or received a better education at his first choice school? Maybe - we'll never know. In his first year, he's taking advantage of many of the wonderful opportunities his university offers and appears to be thriving. He doesn't seem to regret his choice.</p>

<p>I sometimes wonder if he would have worked as hard as he did in high school, if he had thought we were willing to bear the entire cost of his college education. </p>

<p>Bottom line - tell your child (hopefully before his senior year) exactly what you can afford or are willing to afford and then let your child make his/her own wise decision.</p>

136

<p>"He traveled to China over winter break, which I'm sure would never have happened if he had attended a different school. " </p>

<p>Why not? Was it an educational trip? S's college has shorter winter study abroad sessions. S also met kids from China, Saudi Arabia, India, Holland and a number of states just on his Honors floor in the dorm. I think you need to try really hard to end up in the company of "kids next door" novadays. </p>

<p>There may be a valid point behind cheers's retoric, but I loose any desire to look for it, unfortunately.</p>

137

<p>I'm late to this thread but wanted to comment on an early post to the effect that where someone went for undergrad was important for where a newly minted lawyer would be hired. I don't agree. Perhaps there was a time when the old boy network made a difference in that respect. Maybe there is still a place where it does. But I have spent some time as the hiring partner at a large law firm and can tell you that the school of the undergraduate degree was so unimportant to us I couldn't even call it a factor. As long as we verified that the degree was legitimate, Mid-State U was essentially the same as Yale as far as we were concerned.</p>

<p>Now the law school was different, and it may be that one is more likely to get to Stanford Law by first going to Yale than by going to Mid-State U. But that's really the only possible importance I can see. And I probably don't need to say that we also saw many an Ivy League dullard in the recruiting process, too.</p>

138

<p>Travel abroad is definately not limited to private colleges. This past school year my kids have, had or will have friends in England (15), Rome, Kenya, Amsterdam, New Zealand, and Peru (12). Some attended private colleges, some were at State Colleges. My daughter does go to a private college but it's not well known. She did a study abroad in Peru in the Spring and visited friends in England and Africa over her winter break. I think most kids can do a study abroad if they want to and can fit it in their schedule, it's not a matter of attending a certain college. BTW, the student body at my daughters college is 92% out of state.</p>

139

<p>For those who think state schools lack intellectual, networking, and study abroad/internship opportunities, I've been able to do the following at my "good"- not even "top 5"- public university in less than two years:</p>

<ul>
<li>Studied abroad on 2 different continents (should be 4 by the end of the semester)</li>
<li>Had breakfast and a private discussion with a Pulitzer prize winner
-Discussed law with a member of the Supreme Court for a few hours as well as politics with a top pundit
-Completed a full-time internship for a top nonprofit, meeting many well-known politicians in the process and gaining valuable PR skills
-Took grad-level classes with some of the top experts in the nation in that particular academic area
-Presented research at a major international conference
-Assisted a distinguished professor with research for his latest book
-Heard from and engaged in a Q and A with at least a dozen CEOs about their experiences in the business world and with leadership
-Met and worked with a plethora of top professors on a one-on-one basis
-Been heavily involved in leadership and service with many student organizations on campus
-Enjoyed a fine intellectual atmosphere, especially in the honors program, as well as excellent sporting events</li>
</ul>

<p>These opportunities stemmed from both the scholarship money I was able to put towards studying abroad, taking a non-paying internship, and focusing on academics along with the unique opportunities this state school and the scholarship program offered. Is this path for everyone? Probably not. But for me, and probably many other good students as well, it was by far the best decision I've made (including turning down significant merit aid at some top 20 private schools). </p>

<p>This is not simply the mantra of looking for a particular "fit" in terms of whether a student matches up well with a school on the whole; I mean fit in terms of the exact situation that student will encounter at that particular school. I'm extremely happy with my situation at a "Good/Cheap" state school and look forward to racking up prodigious amounts of debt at a prestigious university for grad/law school.</p>

140

<p>Another thread has a link to a chart presenting the results of a survey a few years ago that looked at which schools kids chose when they had been accepted to more than one. Three great state schools (only three, unfortunately) are included in the chart -- UVa, Berkeley, and UCLA. In head-to-head competition with HYPS+MIT, none of the state schools got more than 9% of the kids, and it was more like 2% or 3% vs. HY.</p>

<p>Granted, the study is a few years old -- I think it was the 2003 acceptance season -- and there may be some change happening. But those are pretty stunning numbers: Hardly any actual kids, given the choice between UVa and Harvard, select UVa (and a substantial number of Harvard admittees from Virginia must also be admitted to UVa and could go there with whatever benefits top in-state kids get).</p>

<p>Here's the link:
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/17/weekinreview/17leonhardt.html?ex=1170392400&en=acfa02da4e1d5a23&ei=5070%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/17/weekinreview/17leonhardt.html?ex=1170392400&en=acfa02da4e1d5a23&ei=5070&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>