<p>I will join the chorus of people who say 'it depends on the kid'.</p>
<p>I sing that tune.</p>
<p>If a student has "left nothing on the table" that their high school offers, a college will consider their prospects for success to be good. In that sense, all who are admitted should be successful. However, at a school like Princeton, with endless demanding opportunities, the inherent elasticity of a student's ability to remain in contact with success is put to a severe test. It isn't that a kid can't do the work, they just can't hold focus to get it all done. There is no choosing the better over the worse, as each offering is amazing after its own fashion. The level of attainment of each class has steadily ramped up as financial access has improved. If you think you can imagine how difficult it is to make your way in a place of such unrelieved brilliance, well, you can't. You are sending your child into a world that will keep expanding beyond your grasp, the more you learn of it. Your child will appreciate your efforts to embrace the challenge.</p>
<p>So an ambitious, striving kid will do better at a higher-level, challenging school? Just trying to get some take-away from this thread, as we are getting down to the wire w/choices for son.</p>
<p>I really envy those who can 'know' their child's personality and be able to project what environment would be most condusive to his/her success. </p>
<p>My son has some strong interests, but does just enough to get by (& get mainly As) in HS. He's got the ability (as so many parents here have conveyed about their children) -- 95% test scores, etc. </p>
<p>I really have no clue whether 'top of the heap' or 'in a group of other motivated, more-hardworking students' would be best. And, at a large U, how in the world can you assess such a specific environment. </p>
<p>I guess I'm just admiring of those who can analyze their own child and project optimal, environmental situations so well...</p>
<p>Well I can tell you that in my case it had nothing to do with me knowing them and was their choice entirely. Their guidance counselor encouraged both of them to "aim higher" in some applications, but neither was interested. I guess they knew themselves well enough to know what they were looking for and I let them lead the way under certain parameters (some geographic, some cost, some depth and width of offerings available). They are both happy so I am glad I trusted them to find their way.</p>
<p>Phone was ringing while I posted so I didn't finish my thought LOL...
Anyway - I guess it is like everything else in the child raising process- what works for one may not work for the other and we can all only do our best. Hopefully the first choice works out, but at least a student can transfer if necessary.
I am glad I am now out of the school selection stage....unless they ask my advice for grad school! LOL</p>
<p>*Isn't that a bit of heresy to people here at College Confidential? Isn't the goal here to claw your way into the "best" college possible? (The "best" means the most prestigious and the most academically rigorous.)</p>
<p>On the other hand, a student could deliberately choose to attend a somewhat less prestigious, less rigorous college where he/she can have a better and happier educational experience. *</p>
<p>I think you may have your Tiered blinders on. I have seen hundreds if not thousands of posts from parents and students who were admitted to Ivies but are attending schools that offer merit and " ranked" much lower, students who didn't have any good fit schools and are making the choice between community colleges and non-flagship schools and students who attended " top ranked schools" decided it wasn't worth the expense, and transferred out.</p>
<p>Yes peer group is important in college- but it is inaccurate to think you can only learn at an institution that costs tens of thousands a year with a 20% admit rate.</p>
<p>You may be surprised at the quality of the profs at a community college. Academia as some of you know, is fiercely competitive and simply not enough jobs for all that want to teach. There are great educators at small unknown schools eager to work with students that challenge them.</p>
<p>Ive known people who have degrees from top schools who have preferred some courses/profs at the community college to some of their courses where they were granted a diploma.
Perhaps it was just that their expectations were very high, I dont know.</p>
<p>In my daughters high school graduating class- I got to know most of the students quite well as most had attended since 6th grade and I volunteered at the school quite a bit.
Virtually all the students go directly to a 4 year college- a handful ( including my daughter) choose a gap year of service, or more than a year of service by entering the military. One student- possibly the sharpest mind in the class (both parents were college profs at a big name school), felt he couldn't learn anymore at the school and worked hard at getting himself expelled just a few months from graduation. ( nothing too big- just continually telling the teachers that he knew more than they did :rolleyes: )</p>
<p>He went on to teaching on a small island for a few years, joined the Marine Corp, served in Iraq, earned a Purple Heart and returned to Iraq.( He also was personally promoted by James Mattis)</p>
<p>He has never attended college to my knowledge, but if he chose to, he may well decide to first attend a community college or other public school, as have other veterans in my classes. The advantage I see in attending a school that is less expensive than a top tiered private is that the classes aren't just full of 19 year olds, but of adults ( and sometimes teens doing dual enrollment) from all walks of life, with backgrounds that add to the discussion in and out of class.</p>
<p>He also was personally promoted by James Mattis</p>
<p>who by the way attended Central Washington University. ( and who will be played by Harrison Ford in an upcoming movie ;) )
[quote]
General James N. Mattis, USMC is the current Commander, U.S. Joint Forces Command (USJFCOM) and Supreme Allied Commander Transformation for NATO. He previously served as Commanding General, I Marine Expeditionary Force and Commander, U.S. Marine Forces Central Command. He assumed his current assignment on November 9, 2007.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Some people need others leading the way to challenge them, others prefer to find their own path- I think that either kind of student can be successful at schools with more open admission processes or those that have high bars for admission. IT isn't so much how you got there, but what you do once you arrive.</p>
<p>PA mom--I think that is what we are going to do...let son find his own way. Not sure what else to do, since I can't seem to project into the future a vision of an optimal environment for him. Wish I could. :-) EK4-so true, it is what you do in college that's important.</p>
<p>Good luck - I hope everyone ends up at where they are happy and thrive!!
It is a relief when they say they are happy with their choice and are doing well.</p>
<p>For merit aid reasons our son only applied to strong match colleges and not a single reach college. He did get lots of good merit aid offers but more important was his overall college experience. He chose to attend RPI, graduated with high honors and high in his class, was inducted into the department honorary jr year, participated in research in the RAIR Lab, was able to complete a dual major(compsci/cogsci) and dual minor(philo/com game design-really had to squeeze that last one in), spent one summer on campus working with his academic advisor on a open source program project, was selected as the only summer intern at a gaming studio in Pasadena his last summer, is now a project designer for a computer game developer and has been accepted into a grad program for next year.</p>
<p>Finally he graduated with about $40k of his original $76k college fund in the bank.</p>
<p>Would any or all of this been possible at a reach college? Well definitely not the money part. I am certain that he would have had a good college experience and many other colleges but it is hard to imagine that he would have had all the academic success that he had as a small fish in a bigger pond.</p>
<p>And his ultimate success as an adult will depend exclusively on the personal attributes he will be able to offer prospective employers and clients in the future, not the college name on a dusty diploma.</p>
<p>In regard to being at the bottom of the class and "It also doesn't mean they won't be successful. " Well, I agree completely. However, Med. School Admission will disagree and the kid will not get accepted to single Med. School. Besides that, a lot of companies are asking for college GPA during interview. I was asked after haveing over 25 years of experience! I told them that I did not remember, but can estimate, since I graduated with Magna Cum Laude. Just, please, be aware of the fact that it is not worth much in regard to 4 years time that is spent and tons of $$ (particular at top college) to graduate in a bottom of the class. You got to have huge connections to compensate for that, if it even helps at all.</p>
<p>You got to have huge connections to compensate for that, if it even helps at all.</p>
<p>but you may have attended one of the growing number of schools where what you accomplish in college matters more than the lack of grade inflation.</p>
<p>@ older daughters college, students have had a 71% acceptance rate in medical schools for the past four years and for the four years before that an 85% admit rate.</p>
<p>Grads from Reed I daresay are happy to have a B average upon graduation.</p>
<p>"Just, please, be aware of the fact that it is not worth much in regard to 4 years time that is spent and tons of $$ (particular at top college) to graduate in a bottom of the class."</p>
<p>Only a teeny tiny percent of all jobs care about what your gpa was 25 years later or even 3 years after graduation. The benefits from a college education go far beyond regardless of a high gpa or not. Going to college may very well be a life changing experience even if you graduate at the bottom of your class.</p>
<p>I'm glad to see that the parents writing the advantages of top schools aren't limiting that to the tippy top.</p>
<p>Best academic fit is where courses/instruction is interesting enough and rigorous enough to engage and regularly or occasionally challenge the student (depending on the student).
Where there are enough smart and engaged students to have great conversations in and out of class, and with enough variety that each can form comfortable social bonds.<br>
Where desirable opportunities are extended to students at your level.</p>
<p>I recruited sales people for many years. Never once asked for GPA. Our favorite schools were Ohio State, Wisconsin, U Michigan. We looked for fraternity presidents who were first generation college and had worked their way through school. Didn't care about the major but English and History were good proxies for someone who could write a coherent presentation.</p>
<p>I recruited engineers; we loved MIT, Cal tech, UIUC, Missouri at Rolla, Cornell. We asked for GPA but anything at or over a 3.0 was fine (MIT is on a 5 point scale; you do the math.) We loved anything team related- sports, debate, whatever- anything that suggested the kid could lead, follow, and interact with peers on a sustained and regular basis. We loved well written cover letters.</p>
<p>I've recruited for financial engineering and asset management professionals. Handful of schools; GPA under 3.6 and you didn't get an interview unless you had something else very compelling on your resume (a couple of patents, co-authors of major research papers with professors, etc.) </p>
<p>I've recruited for editors and writers; we never asked GPA but we had two standardized tests we administered which assumed a 12th grade reading and writing level and we had PhD candidates in English who flunked the tests. An editor at a well regarded daily newspaper who flunked the grammer/standard written english test (but did fine on analytical reading and writing). If you graduated from podunk U with a degree in basket weaving but had great clips, good internships, and could ace my test- no problem.</p>
<p>So it depends. I wouldn't send a kid into a college suspecting that he or she was going to fail or end up at the bottom of the barrel, but I had no qualms sending my own into situations where they could have ended up at the bottom... as long as they learned something and worked hard at whatever they studied, I was a happy camper. There are plenty of careers out there they don't care your GPA, just as there are places where you can't get an interview with a B average. YMMV.</p>
<p>Great summary, blossom!</p>
<p>
[quote]
I guess I'm just admiring of those who can analyze their own child and project optimal, environmental situations so well...
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</p>
<p>We are going through this right now with D. I use past interests that she sustained and those she quit and even those that she down right rejected as options for a glimpse into what might work at colleges for her. For example, we know she likes to join groups that friends are in, but won't join just because friends are in them. She does not hold leadership positions in groups, likes to be a doer, not leader. She quits things that become highly competitive. She loves to challenge herself academically, for herself only.</p>
<p>We use these experiences and traits to figure out what might be a fit for her. Has the brains, but is so not an Ivy kinda girl. We are leaning towards mid tier 1 schools and schools that have reputations for good academics, but laid back personalities, etc.</p>
<p>It helps to look all the way back at what activities your child embraced, quit, shined at, loved, hated, etc.</p>
<p>I haven't read the whole string and am going to through in a couple comments I hope are not redundant.</p>
<p>The idea that anyone could predict who will be at the bottom of the class at an elite school is not really logical ... from a analytical point of view. The academic ability of the kids applying to top tier school does not follow a complete normal distribution ... it is a chopped off version of the very top of a normal curve. There are a few genius types and then a ton of excellent students. Think about the admissions discussions ... 90% of applicants are qualified ... we could throw out the class we picked and pick another class of equally qualified kids ... etc. The whole "bottom half" of an admitted students are similarly skilled students who are quite capable of doing fine work at the school (along with a ton of the kids who were rejected with very similar academic profiles). (The exception here would be special admits whose qualification might be a bit lower ... some atheltic recruits for example ... but I assume the OP is referencing a regular applicant.)</p>
<p>Ultimately who ends up in the bottom half of their class will have a lot more to do with discpline and work ethic than any underlying difference in base ability. Even then I do not think a kid ending up in the "bottom half" of their class is necessarily an issue ... I think there are two much more specific questions that are much miore relevant. Is it likely the student will struggle at the top tier school (I can probably count on my fingers and toes the number of kids who struggled at the 3 top tier schools I attended who were disciplined and worked hard ... some kids might have gotten a 2.7 or a 3.0 but were not in any danger of flunking out). The second question, for the student's next step how important is the tougher school/high GPA trade-off ... Med school kids might want to bias towards schools they are more likely to get a high GPA ... future high-powered consultants might want to tend towards the higher ranked schools to which they are accepted.</p>
<p>Finally, agreeing with a lot of other commets ... ultimately this is a very specific to a particular student. Some kids perform better as a big fish in a small pond while others will float along in that situation. Some kids perform better when thrown into the deep end of a challenging situation while others will struggle. This is case where knowing the student is VERY important.</p>