Prestige Obsession

Parents Forum
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<p>There was an interesting table posted here last year, perhaps on the old board, that showed the undergraduate colleges attended by all the current Harvard Law students. I wish I could put my hand on it so we could look at it again, but as I recall HYPS, other Ivies, and other prestigious schools were HEAVILY represented in the class. Clearly, being from a big name school didn't hurt your chances. </p>

<p>I'd say at least half of the was drawn from those few big name schools. But that means about half of the class members were from less lofty schools - state schools, ordinary schools, etc. One stat that sticks in my mind was that BYU, a fine niche school but not a prestige powerhouse by any means, had 30 alumni enrolled at Harvard Law. That's pretty good for a tier 2 or 3 school.</p>

<p>So my answer to the prestige/law school question based on that table would be that going to a prestige college apparently can help with top law school admissions, but it is by no means necessary.</p>

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<p>Yeah law schools care about your LSATa and your GPA and maybe your EC's. Where you got your degree from might rank below how well you color coordinate. If prestige schools are over-represented in the best law schools it is because they have more than their share of bright hard working kids to start with.</p>

<p>The whole subject of prestige is interesting too because it is regional. I grew up in the midwest. I can guarantee you that a degree from Notre dame had a lot more cachet than any LAC or Ivy. Similarly there are a lot of door that a BYU degree will open for you that an Iny degree won't. In other parts of the country there are very powerful local networks - often to the state flagship, In Louisiana a huge percentage of the power structure have ties to LSU. Down there even a Tulanian can be considered a bit of an outlander in some circles.</p>

<p>In any event if you are picking a school for the cachet of the name you may be making a mistake. Pick it because you like the location, like the library, want to study in some particular department, or think the extra curriculars will be great. Any given prestige school may fit most of that bill but not every one will fit all of it. And finally don't pick someplace that will leave you in debt up to your eyeballs. After four years at a great school you might decide you want to be a forensic anthropologist in which case no matter where you go to school you won't wind up making any real money:-)</p>

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<p>Interesting article in today's Chronicle of Higher Education. A professor at Assumption College (in Mass) receives free tuition, worth about $500,000 for his 5 children...the catch is the free tuition can only be used at schools participating in the same tuition exchange program as Assumption. He checks the list of schools and here are his thoughts/reactions:</p>

<p>"About a month after the twins were born, with this benefit much on my mind, I visited the Web site for the program and printed out the list of partiicpating institutions. Ever since I have been spending a lot of time wondering whether I want what that half a million dollars will give to me - and to my children.</p>

<p>You see, you won't find Harvard on the list, or Brown, or any other Ivy LEague institution. You won't find Stanford or Duke or Nothwestern on there. A few larger state institutions appear on the list, but you won't find Michigan. You won't find the research universities where I received my bachelors.</p>

<p>I suspect I am like most academic parents in that, from the time I first envisioned having children, I envisioned sending them to just such universities. Like any parent, academic or not, I want the best for my children in every respect, and in higher education I had what I thought was a pretty clear picture of what constitutes the best...But lately what I have been pondering is whether I really do have a clear picture of what constitutes the "best" in terms of the education of my children.</p>

<p>Why have I always defined those name-brand research universities as the best? And what does their best mean for my children? I started drawing up a list of what the top research universities have to offer, in contrast to what a college like mine has to offer (since my college is a pretty representative example of the colleges that participate in our exchange program).</p>

<p>I started with the faculty. It seems self-evident that I would want my children to work with the most brilliant minds in America. And at the Ivy League institutions, they certainly would - depending,that is on how you define brilliant. My own experience as an undergraduate and a graduate student taught me that it was possible for professors to be brilliant in their scholarship and completely inept in their ability to educate me...The ones who weren't inept often didn't have much time for me. How could they? They had classes with 100 or more students.Or they were writing their books or traveling around the world lecturing about their reserach....There were exceptions. The most notable was a classics professor who clearly saw himself as a teacher first and who inspired me deeply, but he never rose above the rank of assistant professor in his long career...I remember him so clearly in part because for a facutly member to be so interested in me seemed so exceptional.</p>

<p>My experience working with my colleagues here, by contrast, has shown me how brilliance can be manifested in teaching. Pedagogy is the currency of our institution and the measure by which we are judged for promotion and tenure. </p>

<p>So maybe I want my children at the big universities because it will help them on their career paths. Those universities will provide my children with avenues to receive counsel from the experts and with advanced research opportunities...I don't remember a single meeting with an advisor [during my undergraduate years] Here by contrast I meet with my advisees each semester - all of my colleages do. I ask them about their lives outside of the classroom, and abolujt their current thoughts about their lives after college. </p>

<p>Those advanced research opportunities? In my senior year, I decided to seek out a professor who would be willing to undertake an independent stuy with me...I approached a professor I had that semester, and was told she did not have the time. She recommended I try another professor in the department. "But," she said, "don't tell him I sent you." I never found anyone who would conduct that independent study with me.</p>

<p>I have been asked three times now by students to lead independent studies. One changed his mind; I worked with the other two.</p>

<p>My own experiences teach me that perhaps the sort of college I teach at will provide more of the kind of personalized attention from the faculty that I would want for my daughter. But that's not the whole story.</p>

<p>The top universities will perform the sort of vetting of my children's potential friends that every parent secretly dreams of. While the admisisons process won't guarantee her fellow students are of sound moral character, it will guarantee that they are high achievers, that they take their educaiton seriously, and that they come well prepared. I would like to see my daughter surrounded by people who care about books and ideas as much as I know she will.</p>

<p>And...I would like to see all of my children pursue a graduate degree of some sort. And an undergraduate transcript from Harvard would help their grad-school applications more than a transcript from my college or its equivalent.</p>

<p>Those universities open doors, it can't be denied - not only to graduate school, but to a national network of alumni.</p>

<p>It may be that I will have five answers to this question, not one. It may be in other words that hte right college for each of my children will depend on each of my children...I will help my chidlren make this decision on what I truly believe is best for their education, rather than on what will save me the most money."</p>

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<p><a href="http://www.law.georgetown.edu/admissions/jd_profile.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.law.georgetown.edu/admissions/jd_profile.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.law.umich.edu/prospectivestudents/Admissions/index.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.law.umich.edu/prospectivestudents/Admissions/index.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.law.stanford.edu/admissions/jd/admissions.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.law.stanford.edu/admissions/jd/admissions.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Patuxent and others, your comments bring up an important question. As we become more global, will regional advantages lose their edge?</p>

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<p>I doubt it kirmum. I suspect the University of Pune will have a bigger network of alumni in Bangalore than Williams College or Princeton. Or as the late great Speaker of the House said, "All politics are local." It is pretty unlikely that Princeton with its 1500 graduates a year is going to overtake the good ole boy network of tens of thousands of LSU grads in Baton Rouge.</p>

<p>Similarly I work for a company with its headquarters in Boston. But I work in its Maryland offices. I know one Brown graduate and a zillion University of Maryland graduates - an eclectic bunch too from every corner of the globe. Even knew one guy who was half Ethiopian and half Serb. I reckon that is about as exotic a combination as you will find anywhere. I'm sure the brokerage houses up in NY that are our customers are probably way over-represented with Ivy and New England LAC graduates but again that is a regional thing. A tony New England school doesn't impress that many people out in that great wasteland between the coasts or south of the Potomac River simply because there aren't many of them floating around those parts.</p>

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<p>Of course we all want our children to go to the schools that are so consistently ranked the best, are household names, have wonderful facilities, great amenities, have a wonderful reputation. What is there not to like about Harvard? The stats for student retention, student happiness, everything is right up there. The only problem is getting in there. </p>

<p>My feeling has always been that everyone should just put their hats in the ring for HPY & co, then forget about the schools, and focus on what your best fit school is. If you win the lottery, great. It is ridiculous to pretend that there is no prestige associated with these schools, and really a waste of time to obsess about them. There is not a quarter to be gained from visiting them, ruminating over them, discussing your chances with them, etc. Better you pick some schools that fit your profile well, have what you want in studies, ECs, atmosphere, and focus on getting into them. THEY will appreciate the attention, vie for the attention, and really want you to come there so that you can get a good idea of what is there. </p>

<p>I know an adjunct prof who has taught at St Vincent's College for many years. It's something he does for his own enjoyment, love of the subject, love of teaching. When the time came for his own son to look at colleges, and they looked at BC, ND, Emory, Bucknell, Colgate..schools of that range, my friend looked long and hard at the school where he taught, and came to the conclusion that his son who wanted to be pre-med would probably get the best education, most nurturing and the best chance at getting into med school at St Vincent. He felt that way mainly because the situation had a specific end in mind that was more important than the prestige obsession. I went through the same process with my girls, both of whom ended up in small Catholic schools for the same reason. Unfortunately, we most often do not have any such end in mind, and have nothing to really focus upon other than the prestige factor. You would be surprised how fast that would go if you knew what was really important, what the student really wants. So, if you just apply (or discard) those prestige schools, and focus on the unknown factor, and try to hone into it more, you might find yourself with a better fit than just going for a name school.</p>

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<p>BTW an Indian born American I work with assures me that the best known American university in India is the University of Toledo! Apparently it is/was very welcomming to Indian students and an easy ticket to a student visa. All cachet is relative. Who here on this board can name the most prestigious university in India - acountry that graduates many times the number of PhD's than the US and which has admission standards to the best school that are so cut-throat it makes MIT seem like an open admissions community college?</p>

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<p>"Who here on this board can name the most prestigious university in India - acountry that graduates many times the number of PhD's than the US and which has admission standards to the best school that are so cut-throat it makes MIT seem like an open admissions community college?"</p>

<p>That would be Indian Institute of Technology (IIT). But I'm not completely sure which IIT campus is most prestigious--maybe Mumbai (Bombay)? </p>

<p>I've looked into what channels there are for Americans to apply to IIT. No, no one in our family is a desi; we just support getting genuine multicultural experience along with a good education.</p>

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<p>IIT - Indian Institute of Technology.</p>

<p>Many graduates identify themselves and others by their rank in their graduating class. A low IIT number is an impressive resume statistic.</p>

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<p>Good for upi folks. You probably also know that it is entry by competitive exam given once a year - no make ups, no excuses, no second chances, no best score from multiple attempts, your sick that day tough.</p>

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<p>Wow, I stand corrected. Thanks to dstark for providing the table I was thinking of:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>It is apparent that a lot more than the 50% I estimated of the Harvard Law students went to prestige undergrad schools. Maybe school reputation plays a bigger role than I thought.</p>

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<p>Maybe at Harvard. Are those tables available everywhere? "Back in my day", out of 150 kids in my law school class (at Stanford), there was 1 from Harvard, 1 from Princeton, 1 from Dartmouth, a bunch from Stanford, and then a whole lot from places I had never even heard of! I wonder if things have changed......</p>

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<p>I agree that a lot of prestige is lost oustide the Northeast and maybe California.</p>

<p>For instance, in the lower Midwest (more Kansas/Nebraska, less Michigan/Wisconsin), there are no "prestigious" schools to speak of. Harvard is a big name, but any other "dream" school by CC standards is just another college. </p>

<p>Connections are more important than a brand name any day. A "name" school graduate probably has more connections, but I think that's more due to location (coasts).</p>

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<p>The search for prestige is also easier than the search for "fit". HS seniors have to have some knowledge of themselves in addition to some idea about several colleges in order to pick a school that will fit. It is much easier to pick your college as you do your music and find out which colleges generated the most demand among other young people who know as little as you do.</p>

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<p>"It is apparent that a lot more than the 50% I estimated of the Harvard Law students went to prestige undergrad schools. Maybe school reputation plays a bigger role than I thought."</p>

<p>Or maybe money, or maybe connections, or maybe abilities the student had which were not in any way related to the "value added" by the prestige school. To find out, you'd have to begin to ascertain how many of those students received need-based financial assistance as undergraduates; and how many of the law students were paying the tuition without resort to loans.</p>

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<p>We can probably say that it's a mix of undergrad reputation/quality and other factors that contribute to law school admission. Law school prestige, however makes a noticeable difference.</p>

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<p>looking at the list- I thought" wow, if people wanted to attend Harvard law but didn't want to spend much money- BYU is abut $16,000 a year inc room and board!)</p>

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<p>I'd like to explain that there are many states in the "Northeast" besides New York. In fact, having lived in western NY for four long winters (many years ago), many people in western New York will quickly say they live in "upstate New York" to dissassociate themselves from NYC. I don't know for sure if everyone in NYC feels they have to apply to HYPS, but I sort of doubt it.
If there are prestige junkies, please don't assume that everyone in the "Northeast" is one of them.</p>

<p>I agree with lionswim that connections are more important then where you went to college.</p>

<p>Although we live about 1 1/2 hours from Manhatten, there is no pressure at my sons HS to apply to HYPS schools. The top kids go to places like UVA, PSU honors college, Grove City, Case Western, Ithaca, Villanova, Wake Forest, Lafayette, Cornell, BU and Lehigh. The kids on the debate team visit the ivy league schools on a regular basis so many are exposed to those campuses. Maybe our GC's are not adept at counseling for enough of a reach or maybe they're better at finding the right fit.</p>

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<p>Carolyn, what a wonderful article.That just about sums up the whole controversy. What HYPSM/Ivies/AWS all have that lesser mortals don't, are the most highly selected student bodies in the country. Are they the smartest - well, I don't see Caltech in that list. Will they produce the most successful graduates? Where did Warren Buffett go to school? What about Mr. Almost V-P Edwards? What about the person you admire most in the world?
There is no answer to this, just as there is no magic bullet that will get a given kid into the college of their dreams. But I guess it gives us something to waste pixels on!</p>