Again, the education at Harvard isn’t necessarily better than that offered by Tufts (or any other university). And certainly it’s true that someone who gets As at Tufts will have better options for grad school than someone who gets Bs and Cs at HYPSM, but I will steadfastly maintain that more doors will open for HYPSM grads by mere virtue of their alma maters than will for grads of Tufts and comparable schools. It’s not fair, but it’s reality.
It may be your reality.
We’re just going to have to agree to disagree then. The smartest person I knew, prior to going to college, ended up getting accepted EA to MIT and ED to Cornell. He is a programmer, currently studying CS, and when I asked him if he was disappointed about not being able to attend MIT, he said that he wouldn’t have applied ED to Cornell if he wasn’t sure that it was where he wanted to go.
He ended up having a phenomenal freshman year and scored an internship at Facebook this summer. I don’t think Facebook scoffed at his Cornell engineering program and thought “If only he had gone to a real school like Stanford or MIT.” My anecdotal evidence says that it’s more about what you do at college and who you know than where you go, but your experience might be seriously different. I think you are exaggerating how much worse off students are coming from a school that doesn’t have the name recognition of those top 5-10 schools.
I’m calling BS. You’re not the only one who has been around the block. Neither me nor my spouse went to a prestigious college and are firmly in the top 1% by any definition. Our circle of extremely successful peers is filled with a variety of college backgrounds and the majority are not from “prestige” schools. Many are actually state flagship grads and that network is strong and ivy grads are working for them along with everyone else. While there are firms and paths where prestige is a factor to open some doors, it just doesn’t play out the way you say it does in life and in general. Too many other variables. My daughter is going to Vandy on a full merit scholarship. She could have gone to a more “prestigious” school by your definition but Vandy is the best fit. Not even remotely concerned about her opportunities and I wouldn’t be if she chose UT Plan II either.
Nonetheless, a Harvard 25th percentile student (1410 SAT) will not particularly resemble a Tufts 75th percentile student (1520 SAT).
I know it is a long post so I may have missed it, but I don’t see where the OP mentioned financials.
Also, sounds a bit like you say that as a pejorative.
I actually think there’s a lot of truth to what you are saying, OP
Would you be so confident about her future if she’d said she was absolutely in love with the University of Southeast Idaho (non-existent, as far as I know) and wanted to go there instead of Vanderbilt? Or would you have sat her down and explained to her that her prospects in life would be better coming from Vanderbilt?
We’ve had this conversation on CC, by my rough estimate, a bazillion times. Sue22’s response above is the truth: prestige matters, somewhat. It isn’t everything, and it isn’t the only thing, and cost is important, and your personal preferences and fit matter, and the specific program matters, etc. But other things being more or less equal, going to a more prestigious college will get you some goodies you wouldn’t otherwise get. On average. Mostly, but not entirely. More or less.
So I will even make the radical suggestion that if you are admitted to Harvard and Tufts, and you like them about the same, and they cost about the same, and they both offer the program you want. it is probably a smarter decision to go to Harvard.
(Note: there is also the factor, important to some students, of wanting to go to college with the most accomplished peers possible. This factor often tracks the perceived prestige of colleges, and thus is sometimes confused with prestige-seeking. This factor would not make too much difference between Harvard and Tufts, but there would be some difference, in Harvard’s favor.)
“the education at Harvard isn’t necessarily better than that offered by Tufts (or any other university)” . . ." (#20)
This overlooks that Harvard, particularly Harvard undergrad, might conceivably find it challenging to offer programs that are consistently as good as some of the programs available at other colleges, particularly those at which the focus is purely on undergraduates (NESCACs, Claremonts, Swarthmore, et al).
How many times can you have what is essentially the same discussion? You see it from my different angles and phrased differently. But its the same analysis. And the ultimate answer: “it depends” likely allows for it to recycle itself repeatedly.
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USNWR Undergraduate Engineering Rankings (based on peer assessment)
- UT-Austin
- Harvard
I just want to add that there are many places in the US that are very status conscious, and the people who live in cities like NYC or in certain suburbs are very impressed with where someone went to college. These same people are fighting tooth and nail to get their children into these top schools. As the spouse of someone who is Ivy educated, I have seen firsthand how impressed people are (socially and at work)when they hear about where he went to school. He is automatically assumed to be very bright (which he is). As someone who didn’t go to the best school for undergraduate school, but a respectable graduate school, I felt the need to prove myself. There are places in the US and in certain career sectors where no one cares where you went, but trust me, there are many people and employers who care. It’s not necessarily right, but it is a reality. That being said, my ivy educated husband has no interest in our child going to an ivy. He just doesn’t care. He wants her to go to the best school she can get into, but it doesn’t have to be one of the best schools in the country. He thinks an ivy degree opens doors, but is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Non-ivy people like myself are more impressed with the ivies
Download and read this paper
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2473238
Here is the abstract
Now this paper certainly doesn’t restrict “Status/Prestige” to only HYPSM, but definitely makes the point that status does matter.
The Vanderbilt study doesn’t adequately control for students academic ability among the different tiers of colleges. The highly cited Krueger and Dale study does. Here’s Princeton Professor Krueger’s conclusion:
“Recognize that your own motivation, ambition and talents will determine your success more
than the college name on your diploma.”
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/revisiting-the-value-of-elite-colleges/?_r=0
What happened to Tufts or Penn v Duke? Now it’s U Southeast Idaho to validate your point? I don’t care where my D goes if it is a good fit for her. She, not the school, needs to seek and make the most of her opportunities. A “prestige” school offers one set of opps, a state flagship offers another. And each person also has other circumstances and traits that create unique opps. You should look up your fellow UT alums–fair share of billionaires and millionaires, CEOs, etc. Michael Dell didn’t even graduate. Hildebrand (billionaire), McCombs (billionaire), Tillerson (CEO of Exxon), etc. They seem to have had a very successful trip around the block. UT is an interesting example to use because it’s network in Texas is only rivaled by TAMU. And I can’t even count the amount of extremely successful alums I know from those two schools alone. Or look up CEOs by colleges. Sure you will see prestigious schools but you may be surprised by others schools on the list.
And having to impress people/prove yourself to overcome not attending a prestige school? Really? That just reeks of insecurity to me. No offense.
Here is a post from about a month ago by a prestige obsessed parent. If I were interviewing her/him s/he would go into the reject pile for a job:
The V study states upfront that ability may account for findings. Chicken and egg.
Prestige matters “to whom?” @grayscale (post 27) maybe the student who’s in love with mythical University of Southeast Idaho simply wants to stay and have a happy life in Idaho and doesn’t care at all about the “prospects in life” Vanderbilt offers. This prestige issue comes up often in medical school/ residency forums where extremely strong med students don’t try to match in “top tier” residency programs but try for “lesser” programs because they want to stay in their home town (Podunk USA) near family, friends. Trying to get into a “prestigious” residency is simply of zero importance to them. I read surveys of residency program directors (PDs) who as a general rule prefer med students who have graduated from any US med school as opposed to those who graduated from a highly regarded med school. These PDs like other employers want people they can work with and graduating from a “prestigious” med school doesn’t automatically insure that. I’ll give prestige matters in social settings or to parents, grandparents who get to brag about their offspring ad nauseum, but in other cases I agree with @saillakeerie “it depends.” Prestige is just one fact in a decision making process. What weight people put on it depends.
Another note of caution here: studies of future income don’t tell the whole story, because many graduates of highly selective colleges choose careers (like academia and government service) that may not pay as well as many jobs open to graduates of less selective schools. Ranking of your institution may nevertheless matter in obtaining those jobs.