"Prestige"

College Search & Selection
1

I know the “cool” stance on CC is to say that prestige doesn’t really matter as much as “fit” and that one shouldn’t let prestige dictate which school one attends. I’ve seen this come up countless times in countless threads here and I thought, as a 50 y.o. with a lot of experience working with graduates of “high prestige” colleges, that I’d throw a few things out there for the kids to consider.

First, prestige DOES matter. Yes, it does. Don’t let anyone here tell you otherwise. It’s not the whole story, certainly, but it’s definitely a big chunk of the narrative of your academic life. I just read a thread by a student who was considering choosing Tufts over Harvard, as an example. Now, Tufts is a fine school filled with talented, smart students and its graduates go on to top grad programs and professional success for sure. But it’s not Harvard. And I don’t mean academically, because you can certainly get the same quality classroom education at Tufts as you can at Harvard. No question about that. I mean that Tufts is not Harvard in terms of the perception people will have of you once they know where you went to college. Fair or not, where you went to college is, in many fields, a stamp that automatically categorizes you. Your alma mater will forever be shorthand for your talents and abilities, regardless of the reality of those talents and abilities. Alumni of Harvard will always be assumed to be smarter and more talented than alumni of Tufts, even if that’s not true in many cases. Going to Harvard will automatically put you on third base for the rest of your life, whereas going to Tufts just gets you an at bat (to complete the baseball analogy). That is, a degree from Tufts still means you have to prove yourself in comparison to graduates of HYPSM, who will be given the benefit of the doubt in a way that a Tufts grad will not. Graduating from HYPSM will automatically put you at the head of the pack for grad school, fellowships, job interviews, internships, what have you. It moves you to the top of the list. A degree from Tufts gets you in the game but lumps you in with all the students from other non-HYPSM schools and you will have to hustle to distinguish yourself.

Now, I don’t mean to single out Tufts. Again, it’s an excellent school. It’s just the particular example I was reading here on CC. The same applies to any school that isn’t HYPSM. My advice is to go to HYPSM if you are fortunate enough to be admitted and can afford it. I can see choosing among HYPSM based on “fit.” I can, if I squint, see turning down HYPSM for Williams or Swarthmore based on “fit.” I can definitely see turning down HYPSM for a state flagship based on cost. But it’s harder for me to see turning down HYPSM for Tufts or Duke or Penn or Northwestern or Emory or Johns Hopkins based on “fit,” although all these schools are excellent and will provide outstanding educations. Simply put: they will not provide you with the intangible benefits that HYPSM will. And I say this as a graduate of UT, Austin, an excellent state flagship that has held me in relatively good stead throughout my career. But I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen opportunities I wanted (and was qualified for) go to graduates of HYPSM who were no more talented than I but who came wrapped in the ivory glow of Cambridge or New Haven or Palo Alto. It’s a rude awakening to be out in the world and realize that you will be passed over for certain opportunities simply because you didn’t attend the “right” school.

I’m not trying to make anyone feel bad if s/he wasn’t able to gain admission to HYPSM (I didn’t attend any of them, either). This issue extends all the way down the ranks. I wouldn’t turn down Harvard for Tufts. I wouldn’t turn down Tufts for BU. I wouldn’t turn down BU for…you get the point. Now, prestige is a tricky thing and it can be hard to determine whether one school has more of it than another. I mean, is Duke more prestigious than Penn? Is Haverford more prestigious than Middlebury? Is Michigan more prestigious than North Carolina? But in cases where it’s clear (and finances allow), I would recommend going to the most prestigious school you get into (or choose from the most prestigious if you’re admitted to several at the same level.) I would also recommend (very strongly!) that you apply only to schools that “fit” you, so that when you get your results and have to make a choice, you’re not choosing between a prestigious school you hate and a less prestigious school you love. All the schools you apply to should be places where you can see yourself. Otherwise, what’s the point of applying?

I wrote all this simply to provide students with a perspective that’s a bit more realistic than the “fit is everything” position I see people take here. When choosing from among schools of similar prestige, fit is everything. But when you’re comparing schools of markedly different levels of prestige (and cost is not a factor), I’d say prestige absolutely takes precedence.

2

And the cost burden and potential loans are irrelevant?

Why? Because the prestige is worth it?

You sound like you come from a financially privileged family.

3

Please read my post again more carefully. I said, several times, prestige takes precedence when cost is not a factor. And I attended UT, Austin, hardly a stomping ground for the 1%.

4

So kids from lower and middle income families have to do without the “prestige advantage” that their more affluent peers will benefit from as they start out their careers?

5

Schools like HYPSM, which have staggering endowments, will always make themselves affordable to talented students they want, regardless of those students’ finances. Absolutely. But I would rather go to a state school and save my money than go into debt for a diploma from an expensive private school whose name alone won’t open doors for me.

6

I think your definition of “prestige” is that initial eyebrow raising moment when someone tells you “I went to Harvard” and that just saying the H word evokes the “oh wow” comment. So in that regard, yes…yes it probably does have that effect.

But then one must get down to work, mustn’t they? And after the shock value of the H word wears off, you have to prove yourself. The name will only go so far.

7

Yes to both points. Prestige is just about perception. But don’t discount its power. You can’t prove yourself unless you’re given the opportunity in the first place.

8

This post hurts me inside as a Tufts student :frowning:

Most people have never heard of my school, and I get that a lot of people are going to assume “Oh, he goes to a school I’ve never heard of. Must not be very good.” Even worse are the people that assume that I’m an Ivy-reject because I go to Tufts. Someone I went to school with went so far as to ask why I would bother applying early decision to a school that I was “guaranteed” to get into.

I would be lying if I said that I didn’t wish my school had better name recognition. We have had some pretty incredible achievements. Two of my friends who are freshman won an entrepreneurship competition against graduate students, professors, and professionals (they got $10,000 for their idea). Tufts won the national debate tournament against Harvard, Stanford, and Yale. Tufts Financial Group has won investment competitions, beating Wharton and Harvard and MIT and every other top school.

Maybe I would make more money as a Harvard graduate. Maybe people would say “wow” when I told them where I went to college. At the end of the day though, I am relatively certain I would’ve chosen Tufts over any of the Ivies, and over almost any other school in the country. If other people think that I made a poor choice of college, they can think that. I can’t imagine that Tufts has limited me in any way, and I’m almost certain I wouldn’t be happier at any other school.

So if people want to be condescending and act like my 99th percentile standardized test scores were wasted on some school beneath my abilities, that’s their choice. I don’t think that reflects poorly on me or my school though, just that some people are extremely bigoted. I think the advantages of going to a school in the top 10-15 are probably significantly overrated. I have friends who go to Yale, Duke, etc. and they aren’t raking in tons of cash their freshman summer working at their dream internship. Actually, my friend who’s making the most money this summer has a near full-time job working on Wall Street as a freshman (he’s a finance major) and he goes to gasp William and Mary!

9

If a person intends to pursue what can be described as “prestige institutions” for their entire life, then a “prestige” undergraduate college may foster that trajectory. Secure, hard-working, imaginative and status-quo challenging students should feel free to apply more broadly, however.

10

I’m trying to see where the data is in the OP to support the thread’s contention but I’m missing it. Can someone point that out to me?

11

Please understand that I did not mean to single out Tufts. It was simply the example I read here on CC. You could sub in any non-HYPSM school for Tufts and my point would remain the same. And I know full well that a diploma from HYPSM does not guarantee success and that a diploma from another school does not preclude it. I’ve done pretty well for myself with a diploma from UT, Austin, for example. But I know for a fact that certain opportunities I wanted, and was qualified for, were given to others simply because the employer wanted someone with a “fancier” degree for appearances’ sake.

12

Life is the data. I’ve been around the block enough times (and in lofty enough circles) to know that where you go to school makes a big difference in the opportunities afforded to you. Don’t need statistics for that.

13

And I do not mean to single you out, since you’re not the only one guilty of this, but I think you’re wrong about this topic.

Harvard students don’t earn significantly more than students at other respectable universities. I don’t think the actual classroom education is significantly better at Harvard. I don’t think many first-year Harvard STEM students would tell you that half of their first-year classes were smaller 35 students, and I doubt that many first-year Harvard students would tell you that they’re working in a research lab as a freshman.

Maybe I’m naive, but I think it’s more about what you do during your four years at college than where you go. Harvard has access to more resources, better professors, etc. so the options are going to be more abundant and you’re more likely to stumble upon a great opportunity. But I’m working in a research lab at Tufts for a professor who started a world renowned biotech company as a freshman, and I know lots of people who have had similarly impressive opportunities. Harvard might give you an edge just for the name-recognition, but my friends who go to lesser-schools are all still fending for themselves and managing pretty nicely.

14

However, this is what a Harvard grad said about his experiences there. When then candidate, now Massachusetts governor, Charlie Baker was asked by the Boston Globe to take the Proust Questionnaire, he responded as follows:

Q: What is your greatest regret?

Q: Not going to Hamilton College. I never really felt comfortable at Harvard.

15

Prestige is like beauty. Just like prestige, most people are lying if they tell you that beauty doesn’t matter, but it also is in the eye of the beholder. And for most people, prestige, like beauty, matters less the older they get and the more perspective they gain.

But here’s the nit I want to pick: you went to UT-Austin, not Tufts or Duke or Penn. You actually have no idea what doors are opened because someone goes to Tufts/Duke/Penn. As it is, Duke/Tufts/Penn/etc. grads do pretty darn well.

There just isn’t this huge gap between HYPSM and the other Ivies/equivalents (or even near-Ivies) that you seem to think there is.

16

Yup. I love my LAC, a NESCAC school. It was an amazing place where I got an excellent education. I married a fellow graduate and my own children now attend. I would make the choice to attend this school again in a heartbeat.

That said, it’s not my LAC that people seem to be impressed by. It wasn’t until my husband and I ended up in in different graduate programs at Harvard that people started saying things like, “Power couple, huh?” and “Wow, you’re both at Harvard?”

In my husband’s former line of work, management consulting, the name on your diploma definitely made a difference. Ironically, after I accepted my first job out of grad school I was told I almost wasn’t offered the job because they thought I wouldn’t take it.

Overall, I agree with Greyscale. Choosing whether to go to Middlebury vs. Bowdoin or Brown vs. Dartmouth based on perceived prestige doesn’t make much sense to me, nor does going into deep debt to attend an Ivy when one can go to a solid state university honors college. But let’s not kid ourselves. Some schools do confer an advantage simply based on reputation, so to choose U Mass over Harvard because the former is $5,000 cheaper per year would be a serious mistake in my book. So would choosing a LAC with a 75% acceptance rate over Midd or Bowdoin simply because one had a nice visit.

For a humorous take on “fit”:
http://www.theonion.com/article/5-months-college-research-outweighed-weekend-visit-52246

17

@grayscale : Could you provide a link for the Tufts v. Harvard thread referenced in your original post?

18

It’s funny, I went to a state school for undergrad and an Ivy for grad school and every interviewer who has commented on where I went to college ONLY mentions the state school. “Oh, I went there!” or “Hey, my brother went there!” or “Wow, that’s a great school!” It’s strange. The Ivy ranks in the top 5 programs for my field, according to US News. But I suppose employers know the state school on a more personal level and have more connections with people who went there. If I had known, I probably would’ve stayed at the state school for my masters.

19

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/tufts-university/1879490-tufts-vs-harvard-vs-vanderbilt-vs-upenn-p1.html

Here is a link to thre aforementioned thread

20

Regarding UT/Harvard, I believe a future president attended Harvard Business School after being denied at UT Law.