Princeton and Affirmative Action..? Chances?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
21

<p><quote>"It's still going to help you a great deal, however, in the same way that it will guarantee Dbate's acceptance.<\quote></quote></p>

<p>Ppl need to STOP saying that, it is making me nervous.</p>

<p>To:jroc</p>

<p>a)AA is obviously good for us, but I think we should acknowledge it in a subtle way only bc alot of other ppl work really hard and don't get in, so we shouldn't throw it around in an obnoxious way. (not to say that you did)</p>

<p>b) I do not know your class rank so i can not tell how your 3.77 stands at your school, but that is probably the main weakness in your app. I think colleges will like that your ECs have something to do with your ethnicity (like the NAACP stuff) and your community service along with active involvement in your school and awards that tie into community involvement will be an obvious plus. </p>

<p>Since you are a junior I would give you this advice. Alot of admission officer talk about wanting to see an applicants "passion" in fact if you look on the Stanford thread a girl posted a detailed post about what the admission officier who admitted her said about applicants. And unequivocally they want passion. So when you set out to fill out your application focus. You don't have to included everything bc it can end up diluting the things that you are most interested in. For example with what you have presented I would include:</p>

<p>I'll group them to show how you can organize them to show passion:</p>

<p>Minority Involvement:</p>

<p>Founder and president of my school's NAACP club
Secretary of my school's Kappa Alpha Psi fraternity chapter club
Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity Academic Honorary Award
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Certificate of Honor</p>

<p>Community Involvement:
<strong>Government stuff can count as community invovlement bc in theory you should want to be in governement to help ppl</strong>*</p>

<p>Around 200 hours of community
President of my class
President of student govt. association
Model United Nations
President’s Volunteer Award
President's Silver Volunteer Pin
Ft. Detrick Volunteer of The Year, 2005
Ft. Detrick Volunteer Award, 2006
National Student Leadership Conference Nominee
302nd Signal Battalion Commander’s Coin of Excellence
Ft. Detrick Coin of Excellence</p>

<p>Atheltics:</p>

<p>Captain of tennis team
Tennis Varsity Letter and Pin</p>

<p>Things NOT Included:
<a href="I%20would%20exclude%20the%20Ebay%20thing,%20bc%20well%20there%20is%20not%20way%20to%20verify%20and%20profit%20is%20not%20neccessarily%20academic">Took out NHS and spanish bc well it is not something important at all</a></p>

<p>(Academic Awards just show you are smart and get good grades which the Admission commitee can get from your transcript so they do not help at all)
2008 Academic Letter
President’s Award of Academic Excellence
President’s Education Award</p>

<p>So from this it makes it seems as if your ECs are more focused as opposed to all over the place. They want ppl to have a passion and with you combo of community and government with also minority involvement I think you can put together a real nice app.
In order to do so I think you should write one essay about why you want to be involved in government to be an inspiration and a pillar in the minority community or something to that effect. The second essay can be about what government PERSONALLY means to you i.e. what you get out of being involved with governmental things and the like, if you have ever visited DC (which if you go to National Leadership Conference you should, I went in seventh grade and it was nice) there is plenty of iconic things to write about. A really good one would be if you have visited the Lincoln memorial and frame your essay about that and how you feel that being a minority has special obligations to be involved in government. </p>

<p>I think that advice helps more than telling you chances.</p>

22

<p>Well golly gee. If AA was all about diversity, why wouldn't asians be counted in it? I don't bout you, but I think there are probably fewer asians in the US than blacks. But. What do I know?</p>

23

<p>thank you for your advice! =)</p>

<p>And I'm also a military kid so I could probably tie that into the government part I'm guessing. </p>

<p>Thanks again.</p>

24

<p>"Well golly gee. If AA was all about diversity, why wouldn't asians be counted in it? I don't bout you, but I think there are probably fewer asians in the US than blacks. But. What do I know?"</p>

<p>Because asians are not underrepresented at the schools, in fact at UC schools they are the largest population in many cases. You make an excellent point in the wrong direction, there are more african americans in the US than asians yet in the schools there are more asians present than blacks, this would be another reason of trying to increase the number of african americans in colleges.</p>

<p>These are private universities and they get to pick whomever they would like to attend for whatever reason they want. I appreciate the diversity of race, background, and EC's the privates want to bring to their schools.</p>

25

<p>I completely agree with bluebird. Asians are, so to speak, "overrepresented" at private universities. Meanwhile, blacks account for 13-15% of the United States population and only 8% of the student body at Princeton and less at many national private universities. But, since these institutions are private they don't really have any "quotas" because they do not receive federal funding. In theory they could be 100% white if they wanted to. But these schools know the value of ethic, social, and economic diversity.</p>

26

<p>Hm. Why are there more asians at colleges than blacks?</p>

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<p>^^^^intellectualness is part of their culture</p>

28

<p>My mom is a psychologist and has done studies on affirmative action. I was born in London and moved to America at the age of three. I am technically Nigerian, and have been to many private schools. Even though I am not technically African American, in the past teachers have discouraged me from reaching some goals based on the fact that I am black. In this private school I went to from second to fourth grade, the parents would say that I had come from Africa with my second grade teacher who was a missionary. I think that is where affirmative action steps in. It is there to encourage other races when many schools have discouraged them and possibly impacted their overall performance in school.</p>

29

<p>I really don't even want to acknowledge the ignorance of your comment, mysoj1230.
The truth is that the current state of many African Americans and Hispanics and Native Americans stems from a very long time ago (not going to get into an argument about this). Therefore, affirmative action is the only form of restitution given for those of us who are qualified to be in top universities, but may not have the advantage and leverage that a private secondary school education and certain high profile connections and affiliations give. The same goes for legacy preference given. I challenge you to find one student currently at Princeton that is a legacy and African American. The truth...there aren't any. So if preference is acceptable for Caucasians and Asians who have parents that went to Princeton in the past, then why isn't it acceptable for an under represented minority (yes i said it), whose parents and grandparents NEVER would have had the oppurtunity to go to an institution such as Princeton or Harvard or Yale whether they were qualified or not, just because of their race?</p>

<p>I'm curious to your thoughts on this idea specifically.</p>

30

<p>Personally, I do not think that they should even ask for ethnicity on a college application. It's unfair to treat any person differently (for better or worse) because of something like race. The application process should be about who is best qualified for a position in the school. I really don't want to get in an argument, so I'll leave it at that.</p>

<p>I know you were really looking to be chanced, so that's what I'll do. :)</p>

<p>I think you have a decent chance of acceptance, but I am not sure if you are competitve enough quite yet (but you can easily work to be ready come application time).</p>

<p>Strengths: URM (I'm against this discrimination, but it's true.) and leadership positions</p>

<p>Weaknesses: SAT, GPA (what is your rank, by the way?), unfocussed EC's</p>

<p>You have some great EC's and positions, but reading your credentials, I have no idea who YOU are. I don't know what is really, really important to you. I am not saying quit all of your EC's, but rather find out what matters to you and put some effort into those specific activities. Princeton wants to know that you are following a passion, not trying to impress someone. And maybe you are passionate about all of your activities, and if that is so, try to explain in your essays the relevance of each activity with regards to your passion(s).</p>

<p>I hope that helps you!</p>

31

<p>The problem with your argument is that Asians have suffered albeit in a different way. I don't know about other Asians, but the Chinese were banned from coming to the United States until the the 40s. That's a good sixty years. </p>

<p>Furthermore, Southeastern Asians have college acceptance rates lower than the national average because of they generally come from poorer backgrounds. They face two problems: poverty and being the "wrong race."</p>

<p>Legacy preference can apply to African and Hispanic Americans as well as Caucasian Americans so it's irrelevant to preference due to race. </p>

<p>Lastly, it's unfair how an African American upper-income student gets preference over an Asian or Caucasian in poverty because of skin color. </p>

<p>But about your original question (sorry about the dramatic topic hijack in your thread), AA will give a boost but your ECs are pretty impressive. You should have a fair/moderate chance.</p>

32

<p>"I challenge you to find one student currently at Princeton that is a legacy and African American."</p>

<p>Seriously Jroc?</p>

<p>.. Seriously? Did you honestly just type that out?</p>

33

<p>I agree with your issue that not all asians are over represented and I personally wish they were not all dumped under one ethnicity. I guess we could also then argue that white covers many different ethnicities also and they are lumped together. (and hispanic too) </p>

<p>URM stands for under represented minorities. Although some schools may use it to make up for past discrimination I look at it as a tool to promote diversity at schools.</p>

<p>As far as who is most qualified, again it is the private school that decides what qualifications it wants in a student. A 2400 5.0 gps may mean that someone has higher statistics but that does not mean they have what the school wants. There are many people of all races that get turned away with perfect statictics and many people accepted of all races with less than perfect statistics at tops schools. These schools form they class choosing students that they think will add the most to their school, these are the students that are the most qualified for that school. Granted it is very frustrating to be denied admission at a school and see people with lower grades and test scores get in because we are so focused on using these items as measurements.</p>

34

<p>Don't know about the other people, but I was talking about Affirmative Action as a principle...not merely its application in the college app process.</p>

35

<p>ur probly in</p>

36

<p>As far as your chances. You weighted GPA is nice but your unweighted is lower than I would want to have going into your senior year. I can't see your original post as I type so I apologize if you already have, but why not try the ACT? As a previous poster said, I can't tell what your passion is, what makes you stand out from all the other applicants? What will the adcoms remember about you when they finish reading your application. I assume you have already done this but look at the Princeton application, take a look at the amount of space there is for each section. You will see that someone who does a ton of things with lots of awards has to pick and choose what to put in the application as there is not enough room for everythiing. Again, like a previous poster said, focus on activities that build upon eachother to show your specialty/passion. It is great you have your teachers lined up for next year and leadership positions are great too. I do think being a URM helps as long as you have everything else to go with it.</p>

<p>If you study who gets in you will see some students that get accepted at most places they apply and others that get turned down from most schools but accepted into one of HYPMS. We don't get to see the whole application to know if this makes sense but it makes me think that the supplemental sections are really important and that each school is really looking for different applicants to fill out there class so apply away at all the schools you want even if they seem like a reach because all you need is one to be a match.</p>

37

<p>Thank you all for the information!
It really has helped me. I definitely see what you are talking about when you say the college wants to be able to know who I am when looking at the supplemental part of the application including my ECs. </p>

<p>And MYSOJwhatever....please just stop posting in this forum because you're not saying anything productive. </p>

<p>But thank you everyone else! =)</p>

38

<p>
[quote]
Havn't looked into Yale threads and Yale stats, but schools that I have looked into always showed minorities receiving on average 200-300 sat 1 points below nonminority students.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Here's evidence of AA at Yale:</p>

<p>Proportion of Yale admits to the proportion of the state's population
High ratio means a larger fraction of admits per capita
1. District of Columbia - 5.69
2. Connecticut - 5.66
3. Massachusetts - 2.9
4. New York - 2.39
5. New Jersey - 2.22
6. Maryland - 1.83
7. Vermont - 1.7
8. Hawaii - 1.46
9. Maine - 1.43
10. New Hampshire - 1.38
11. California - 1.29
12. Illinois - 1.2
13. Alaska - 1.16
14. Rhode Island - 1.03
15. North Dakota - 1.01
16. Pennsylvania - 1
17. Delaware - 0.91
18. Virginia - 0.84
19. Washington - 0.83
20. Minnesota - 0.8
21. Colorado - 0.76
22. Georgia - 0.69
23. Tennessee - 0.64
24. Florida - 0.64
25. New Mexico - 0.63
26. Ohio - 0.63
27. Missouri - 0.62
28. Texas - 0.6
29. Michigan - 0.55
30. Montana - 0.55
31. Oregon - 0.52
32. Wisconsin - 0.51
33. Idaho - 0.48
34. North Carolina - 0.47
35. West Virginia - 0.47
36. Kentucky - 0.44
37. Nevada - 0.43
38. Arizona - 0.42
39. Kansas - 0.42
40. Oklahoma - 0.41
41. Wyoming - 0.37
42. South Dakota - 0.33
43. Indiana - 0.32
44. Alabama - 0.31
45. Arkansas - 0.3
46. South Carolina - 0.29
47. Iowa - 0.28
48. Louisiana - 0.27
49. Nebraska - 0.26
50. Utah - 0.24
51. Mississippi - 0.16</p>

<p><a href="http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1391/dataif0.gif%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1391/dataif0.gif&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Why would D.C. have such a high ratio? Even higher than Yale's home state, CT? Affirmative Action. </p>

<p>Now why not Mississippi? Because of socioeconomics. Another reason why AA action based on race is useless. Affirmative Action based on socioeconomics makes a lot more sense.</p>

39

<p>"I really don't even want to acknowledge the ignorance of your comment, mysoj1230.
The truth is that the current state of many African Americans and Hispanics and Native Americans stems from a very long time ago (not going to get into an argument about this). Therefore, affirmative action is the only form of restitution given for those of us who are qualified to be in top universities, but may not have the advantage and leverage that a private secondary school education and certain high profile connections and affiliations give. The same goes for legacy preference given. I challenge you to find one student currently at Princeton that is a legacy and African American. The truth...there aren't any. So if preference is acceptable for Caucasians and Asians who have parents that went to Princeton in the past, then why isn't it acceptable for an under represented minority (yes i said it), whose parents and grandparents NEVER would have had the oppurtunity to go to an institution such as Princeton or Harvard or Yale whether they were qualified or not, just because of their race?</p>

<p>I'm curious to your thoughts on this idea specifically."</p>

<p>You're the one who asked for MYSOJ1230's idea, so why ask him to stop posting?</p>

<p>Also, since you're the creator of this thread and you made the above post, I'm sure you have no objections to me responding right? I've already chanced you.</p>

<p>The thing is, nobody is denying that blacks and hispanics were discriminated against. But to say that Asians have it easy is complete bull*****. I can tell you from my personal experiences that I had to deal with my fair share of discrimination starting from elementary school. Plus, as with many asian immigrant families, my family was poor AND had to overcome a major language barrier. I'm glad you brought up legacy... do you think I have legacy??? I'm the same as you - my parents and grandparents had little/no opportunities to attend these kinds of colleges. Yet, even with all this working against asians, they still manage to send more kids to top universities. My question is, why are blacks/hispanics URMs and Asians not? I have no idea how it ended up that way. If anyone has a reasonable theory behind this, I'm all ears.</p>

<p>All I'm saying is that affirmative action is unfair. But colleges find it a great excuse to add to their diversity, making themselves more attractive, and so they use it. Nobody can do anything about it. However, what I want you to do is ask yourself: do I really deserve to get into these colleges? If I wasn't an underrepresented minority, would the people posting here still chance me favorably? If it weren't for the color of my skin, would I really stand a chance in the admissions process? Can you confidently answer YES to all these questions? If so, then apply anywhere you want without regrets. If not, still feel free to apply wherever, but know that you might have gotten in just because you're african american. This brings me to what was my first and is now my last question - doesn't that kind of knowledge hurt your pride?</p>

40

<p>No.
That kind of knowledge doesn't hurt my pride one bit. It's a dog-eat-dog world and you have to use everything you can to get where you need to be. If that means I will get an advantage because I'm African American, then so be it. I'm not going to complain. =)</p>