Princeton and Affirmative Action..? Chances?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>I personally can't stand when people tell me (even my parents!) that I have a better chance of being admitted to [name] university because I'm Hispanic. Maybe I do. But I always respond by saying that I have worked hard so that I am competitive without regard to my ethnicity.</p>

<p>I think that we have to make it in this world ourselves. Although offered by my parents, I turned down opportunities for test prep and paid college counseling. Sure, I wouldn't say no if a university looks at me in a more forgiving light because of my ethnicity, but I won't rely on it. When I am accepted to a university, I want to have the feeling that much of it came from within.</p>

<p>I can see, though, why URMs might sometimes be seen as bringing more diversity and different ideas. For example, my high school's average SAT is 1310 out of 2400. My passion, beside my ECs, is to improve the quality of education in my high school and in my city, which would increase the opportunities for future students. AP course offerings at my school have increased 20% through these efforts. Maybe its these types of traits that colleges look for in URMs.</p>

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<p>I agree with the above if I get accepted to my colleges I want it to be based on me, not my race.</p>

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<p>Regardless, do you all think it's time to get rid of affirmative action based on race?</p>

<p>Affirmative action is "positive discrimination." Can you really justify discrimination in any setting? What affirmative action DOES is blindly favor a minority WITHOUT regard to his or her background. Isn't that racism?</p>

<p>Don't try to tell me a high-achieving wealthy black kid from a wealthy suburb with fancy public schools is the same as a high-achieving poor black kid from an inner-city school. They're not. So if colleges really want to do something to advantage the disadvantaged, they would do affirmative action based on socioeconomics and a comprehensive view of and individuals background.</p>

<p>It is just mind boggling to me how it's considered progressive for colleges to be "need-blind" yet somehow it's not PC to be race blind.</p>

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<p>I think you have good chances, just develop a specific passion and make sure it shows. </p>

<p>And, as for socioeconomic background, I don't necessarily agree that it's as important as culture. For example, many of my friends are Asian and fairly poor (below $50 thousand a year in income), but they still get SAT classes, college counseling, all that, because it's in their culture to have that huge aim toward college. </p>

<p>Also, one thing I never see addressed is this: if your race really doesn't make a difference, why do there seem to be so many highly qualified Asian applicants and so few black, Hispanic, or Native American ones? Unless you want to claim that Asian people are naturally smarter than other minorities (in which case you need to check your assumptions), then it seems clear that being a URM is a disadvantage.</p>

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<p>TheWerg:</p>

<p>So instead of giving blind preference as a Band-Aid solution, which is really all affirmative action is, we should find ways to provide underprivileged groups (either cultural or socioeconomic) with college counseling, test prep-courses, etc. Moreover, there is an underlying problem with equity in our education system. Some rich suburbs in IL (my home state) get almost $17,000 (i.e. New Trier High School's Northfield campus) per pupil in funding! Compare that to under $10,000 per pupil in funding in inner-city schools in Chicago.</p>

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<p>I agree that there are better solutions, but they don't come from the colleges; all colleges can do for now is try to keep their campuses diverse and find people they think would fit best. Also, I know all too well about poor schools, since I think my school actually receives the least possible funding in CA. </p>

<p>By the way, if people are really claiming that URMs are less qualified, are there any statistics showing that they're less successful in college than their white or Asian counterparts? Just wondering.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Why would D.C. have such a high ratio? Even higher than Yale's home state, CT? Affirmative Action.</p>

<p>Now why not Mississippi? Because of socioeconomics. Another reason why AA action based on race is useless. Affirmative Action based on socioeconomics makes a lot more sense.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>FYI, icfireball, DC is also the "state" that consistently has the highest National Merit cutoff. This has nothing to do with the fact that the black people there are smarter however, because PSAT cutoffs are solely based off the people who take the PSAT. In DC, VERY few AA people take the PSAT, rather it is largely taken by the white kids who attend the rich private schools who also usually take intense prep courses. Thus, it is these white people that are responsible for the high national merit cutoff. </p>

<p>In a similar way, these VERY rich white kids in DC (sons/daughters of our beloved politicians, statesmen, and international businessmen) are applying to HYPMS in droves. Since they are from such an incredibly privileged background, have big last names, likely have legacy at these top colleges, and have lots of familial influence, they are disproportionally accepted to these top colleges. </p>

<p>It's ridiculous of you to claim that black students are responsible for this abnormally high admit rate, because many of these students could unfortunately NEVER be accepted to such schools (even with Affirmative Action). You say that Mississippi doesn't have such a high admit rate because of socioeconomics, but less than 1% of the blacks in DC could even be considered middle class by national standards. </p>

<p>Basically you're making outrageous assumptions based on unfounded claims.</p>

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<p>Eatingfood makes a very important observation. And I also agree with TheWerg.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
By the way, if people are really claiming that URMs are less qualified, are there any statistics showing that they're less successful in college than their white or Asian counterparts?

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<p>I bleieve ugrad colleges don't regularly publish this data. But here's an article showing the racial disparity for law schools:</p>

<p>Featured</a> Article - WSJ.com</p>

<p>The most telling statistic is copied below:</p>

<p>
[quote]
As a result, in elite law schools, 51.6% of black students had first-year grade point averages in the bottom 10% of their class as opposed to only 5.6% of white students. Nearly identical performance gaps existed at law schools at all levels. This much is uncontroversial.

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<p>Other parts of the article explain that blacks are being put in schools where, intellectually, they don't belong. Rather than attending a school where the course rigor is fitted to their intellectual ability (of course many blacks are capable of succeeding at an elite institution, this is germane to affirmative action admits), the affirmative action blacks are placed in a curriculum that is too difficult and too fast paced for them to learn the material properly.</p>

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<p>"Other parts of the article explain that blacks are being put in schools where, intellectually, they don't belong. Rather than attending a school where the course rigor is fitted to their intellectual ability (of course many blacks are capable of succeeding at an elite institution, this is germane to affirmative action admits), the affirmative action blacks are placed in a curriculum that is too difficult and too fast paced for them to learn the material properly."</p>

<p>LOL.</p>

<p>OH. Oh I'm sorry. Maybe that's a negative result of affirmative action? How does that explain the stats? It merely reiterates how terrible affirmative action is.</p>

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<p>I don't really think this guy is pulling the "ethnicty" card, but I think it's kind of odd that he'd ask about it on this site....</p>

<p>I'm Native American and enrolled in my tribe. This has been a big part of my life (though we don't live on the reservation and we don't suffer the amount of poverty that many others do) and I have been told that colleges will look at this as something I can bring to campus, something unique. What do you guys think about this?</p>

<p>By the way, I didn't even apply to Princeton, I couldn't, because I don't have SAT IIs.</p>

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<p>Dontno is generalizing too much.</p>

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<p>To an extent, I think part of the high percentage of Asians is due to culture. Chinese Americans typically emphasize education for both cultural and historical reasons. However, the high representation may also have a socioeconomic root as well. I'm not sure which Asian ethnicity you're referring to, TheWerg, but Southeastern Asians have a very low college acceptance rate usually because many of their parents arrive as poor refugees. A significant fraction of, but not all, Indian and Chinese immigrants, however, are well-educated and, hence, their children have more opportunities.</p>

<p>I don't think that's a fair accusation jroc92; in fact, I would argue that AA does just that: generalize.</p>

<p>Supposedly, "URMs" need help getting into college and "ORM" don't. If you disagree with this statement yet support AA then why do you support AA? </p>

<p>Furthermore, AA arbitrarily damages the chances of poor SE Asians because they're Asian, or an ORM, even though their ethnicity has acceptance rates below the national average. AA keeps alive the "generalization" of Asians, that they are some monolithic group only consisting of East Asians and Indians.</p>

<p>I'm all for giving socioeconomic AA a try, however.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
FYI, icfireball, DC is also the "state" that consistently has the highest National Merit cutoff. This has nothing to do with the fact that the black people there are smarter however, because PSAT cutoffs are solely based off the people who take the PSAT. In DC, VERY few AA people take the PSAT, rather it is largely taken by the white kids who attend the rich private schools who also usually take intense prep courses. Thus, it is these white people that are responsible for the high national merit cutoff. </p>

<p>In a similar way, these VERY rich white kids in DC (sons/daughters of our beloved politicians, statesmen, and international businessmen) are applying to HYPMS in droves. Since they are from such an incredibly privileged background, have big last names, likely have legacy at these top colleges, and have lots of familial influence, they are disproportionally accepted to these top colleges. </p>

<p>It's ridiculous of you to claim that black students are responsible for this abnormally high admit rate, because many of these students could unfortunately NEVER be accepted to such schools (even with Affirmative Action). You say that Mississippi doesn't have such a high admit rate because of socioeconomics, but less than 1% of the blacks in DC could even be considered middle class by national standards. </p>

<p>Basically you're making outrageous assumptions based on unfounded claims.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I said evidence, not proof. Affirmative Action is only one contributing factor to why D.C. might have significantly higher admit rates. Other important factors include the fact that D.C. has the highest public education funding per pupil on average than anywhere else in the nation. So as you can see, a black student in D.C. is far more likely to perform well because their public schools have a wealthy "politicians, statesmen, and international businessmen" tax base and great funding.</p>

<p>Also, D.C. is 55.6% black whereas Mississippi, the state with the largest proportion of African Americans, is 36.66% black. Moreover, Mississippi has a median household income of $34,473 where as D.C. has a median household income of $58,526, almost a $25,000 difference! Since over half the population is black in D.C., this means that a very good proportion of the black population in D.C. have a household income higher than the median household income of ANY race in Mississippi, let alone blacks, which according to you would be much lower. And unlike D.C., the South is still very much segregated. You don't have rich people paying property taxes for poor schools like the case in D.C.</p>

<p>Basically you're making outrageous assumptions based on unfounded claims.</p>

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<p>I strongly disagree with Affirmative Action, as it gives an unfair disadvantage to Asians. Their reasons are stupid. Not trying to be racist, but the reason there are more Asians in elite colleges than other minorities is because we work harder. We have NO unfair advantage such as wealth, we simply have better work ethic that is a result of our cultural heritage. And frankly, it's preposterous that universities are accepting people with inferior statistics just because they are a minority.</p>

<p>Jian Li is a perfect example. 2400 SAT, perfects SAT IIs, top 1% of his class, and he got rejected. His research has shown that if Princeton and other Ivy League Universities would put race aside, 80% of the class slots from African Americans, Native Americans, and Hispanics would be given to Asians instead. If anything, they should discriminate against financial background, but that too is wrong. But not as wrong as punishing people for what they can't help; their race, and punishing their race because it has work ethic.</p>

<p>We need another Jian Li to file a lawsuit. Affirmative Action is ridiculous in every aspect.</p>

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<p>ok all this talk about affirmative action is great...but can we get back to the original topic for the thread.</p>

<p>anybody have any CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions for my applying to Princeton next year?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
ok all this talk about affirmative action is great...but can we get back to the original topic for the thread.</p>

<p>anybody have any CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions for my applying to Princeton next year?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My advice? Make the most of your high school years.</p>

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<p>Also jroc92, you want this thread to be about you yet you posted an inflammatory discussion topic. The title of this thread is: "Princeton and Affirmative Action..? Chances?" So part of the thread is about your chance to get into Princeton, and the other part of the thread is about Affirmative Action generally vis-</p>

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<p>Well the conclusion of this thread is that jroc is an idiot. But will still get into Princeton.</p>

<p>Also that affirmative action is bad and that asians aren't politically involved enough to change it.</p>

<p>Wow. Talk about not pc.</p>

<p>Ooooops.</p>

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<p>Well, if it makes anyone here feel better, there are only 43 Native Americans in Princeton's class of '11. Wow. That stat is surprising.</p>