Princeton and Affirmative Action..? Chances?

<p>icfireball: you definitely are COMPLETELY wrong. Please cite your source for that data because D.C. is one of the worst cities pertaining not only to education, but also crime rate and poverty. The quote on quote "rich blacks" that you speak of live in the suburbs of D.C. (i.e. Rockville, Bethesda, Silver Spring etc.). Those cities are A LOT more well off than D.C. and they ARE NOT predominately African American.</p>

<p>Oh and my source...I LIVE IN A D.C. SUBURB! :)</p>

<p>jroc92:</p>

<p>Per</a> pupil spending by state - ePodunk</p>

<p>Again, I'm more than willing to admit that personal experience tells a lot more than numbers, but I'm just looking at what I'm able to see.</p>

<p>To Dbate and jroc92: Sorry, the "why bother trying" comment was completely ungrounded. That was a bad way to set up my example. My point was that affirmative action will lower the standards for future generations of URMs. </p>

<p>To jroc92: I didn't get rejected from any top universities (yet), but the anxiety of waiting for my decisions is causing me to really hate affirmative action. Don't mind me if I sound bitter in these posts... it's just the way I argue :). Just tell me if I'm stepping out of line.</p>

<p>Yes, your race definitely helps a lot. and your stats look very promising. Therefore, you have a very good chance, if your essay is outstanding as well. Good luck and I hope you get an accepted letter in April. :)</p>

<p>Choi. You do definitely have a point there though (lowering standard) and to those who are criticizing her, understand her pov. Asians bust their a** off and have to work harder than any other race, including whites, in order to achieve the same results. If you think about it, Choi has a right to be bitter.</p>

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<b>And to dontkno</b>: ..."the pejorative 'oreo'"...that was seriously an ignorant comment. Why is that an intelligent black youth is always perceived as acting "white". Your statement simply perpetuates a stereotype. I'm truly disappointed because I was actually beginning to see your viewpoint in the issue as actually being a little valid.

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<p>I'm sorry that you misconstrued my post. I put the word "pejorative" in front of oreo b/c I thought that would indicate I think it's wrong. I think it's ridiculous that intelligent, academically oriented blacks are dissuaded by their own community. I just thought saying "oreo" would be more illustrative than saying "suburban black." More people know what an oreo is than a "suburban black", same with "Twinkie" and "suburban Asian". Did that explanation clear up what I was trying to say?</p>

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I'm truly disappointed because I was actually beginning to see your viewpoint in the issue as actually being a little valid.

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<p>I'm actually quite surprised by that. I've never voiced this opinion to a non-white person and have them not dismiss my point entirely.</p>

<p>On a more general note, I think people are being a little harsh on jroc. Yes his GPA is slightly subpar and so are his SATs. Now for a white or Asian, he'd probably be put into the maybe pile then rejected later. But from looking at his scores, his acceptance isn't a travesty of injustice. Yes I think it's unfair if he's accepted b/c his scores aren't quite up to snuff, but I' confident that if he works hard, he'll be able to succeed at Princeton. So many affirmative action admits are so completely unqualified (SAT scores 250 pts below average on the old 1600 scale) and mediocre GPA's. Couple his OK (for Princeton not in general!) scores with his large number of EC's, and I'm not going to be too upset over his acceptance.</p>

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Posted by KitKatz
Choi. You do definitely have a point there though (lowering standard) and to those who are criticizing her, understand her pov. Asians bust their a** off and have to work harder than any other race, including whites, in order to achieve the same results. If you think about it, Choi has a right to be bitter.

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<p>First of all, "Asians" do not all work hard. That's a stereotype, although I will admit it has some merit, as most stereotypes do. First generation asian-americans are most likely to work hard because of parent pressure, etc.</p>

<p>Second, you can't just say categorically that asians work harder than other races. Learning is not truly measured by SATs and APs. If the priority is getting higher test scores, asian-americans certainly excel at that, at least statistically.</p>

<p>That being said, is it fair that it's harder for an Asian to get into college than someone of a different race? Well, no. But it's also not fair to value one specific measure of intelligence over another. Should a white person be penalized because standardized testing isn't stressed nearly as much in their culture? If there's another candidate exactly like you, it's twice as hard to get in. If you go along with the stereotype, the pool of asian applicants is very similar. High test scores, certain specific kinds of extracurriculars, etc. Asians that can distinguish themselves from this stereotype are much better off in the college admissions process.</p>

<p>"Asians that can distinguish themselves from this stereotype are much better off in the college admissions process"
Yes, that is very true, but that doesnt mean they are exempt from the competition set up by their race testwise. They still have to match the scores of a typical asian and still be different. that is working hard in my book. </p>

<p>"Asians do not all work hard", also true, and I did not say that all asians work hard.</p>

<p>Sorry if I wasn't clear and was generalizing a bit. lol :)</p>

<p>And every African American isn't athletic. Obviously not EVERYONE is going to work hard or be good at something. Generally, we DO tend to work harder than other races.</p>

<p>@icfireball: It isn't fair to value one measure of intelligence above another? What are you talking about?... What type of ''intelligence'' do white people have that Asians don't? The case I am talking about where an Asian candidate is superior in all fields, including ECs. Make yourself more clear. Test scores aren't stressed enough in your culture, too bad, so sad. Nobody needs to baby you into studying. When University is ALL about studying and learning, if you aren't going to bother to study as hard or harder than an Asian, you don't deserve to get in. The only intelligence I see you talking about is the ancient art of slacking off, which, of course, you win in spades.</p>

<p>@Dashboard: Actually, an Asian by the name of Jian Li did try to do something about affirmative action. He conducted a study about Affirmative Action that concluded that 80 percent of other minorities would be replaced by Asians if race was not a factor. He also filed an unsuccessful lawsuit, and was later mocked by Princeton's newspaper. You can read more about him on Wikipedia or by googling his name. Somebody does need to file a class action lawsuit, though. The only problem is that since these are private institutions, they can really do whatever they want, can't they? Otherwise, the Aryan Knights and those KKK factions would long be gone. I think only public institutions are able to be sued for racism.</p>

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@icfireball: It isn't fair to value one measure of intelligence above another? What are you talking about?... What type of ''intelligence'' do white people have that Asians don't? The case I am talking about where an Asian candidate is superior in all fields, including ECs. Make yourself more clear. Test scores aren't stressed enough in your culture, too bad, so sad. Nobody needs to baby you into studying. When University is ALL about studying and learning, if you aren't going to bother to study as hard or harder than an Asian, you don't deserve to get in. The only intelligence I see you talking about is the ancient art of slacking off, which, of course, you win in spades.

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<p>You make a dangerous amount of generalizations there. </p>

<p>Diversity is necessary for the college enviornment. Admissions officers also choose different types of applicants because they know a wide variety of talents will most effectively use the university's resources. My first point was that the pool of asian applicants is on the whole pretty homogenous - you have the same type of applicants. This inherently does not hurt asians in applications.</p>

<p>You said "What type of ''intelligence'' do white people have that Asians don't?" You misunderstood what meant. I'm not talking about possessing or the ability to possess talent or "intelligence" or talent. I'm talking about the cultural value that is put on certain kinds of intelligence or talent. Culturally in the U.S., white people are less concerned with standardized testing, and therefore don't study as much for standardized testing, and therefore don't perform as well statistically. Does that mean white people don't work as hard as asians? Does it mean they are dumber? No, it just means they're (not all obviously) working hard doing other things or developing other talents.</p>

<p>Now keep in mind that I'm talking generally and statistically. If you look at individuals asians, sure there are people with high test scores, great extracurriculars, etc. But there are white kids, black kids, and hispanic kids with high test scores and great extracurriculars too.</p>

<p>I get the gist of your argument, but what I am asking is:</p>

<p>Just what are they putting their energy into? I see what you are saying, I just can't think of anything where that applies. If their test scores were lower but they had superior ECs, I would have no problem with them getting accepted over an Asian. Fair is fair. The situation I am talking about is where the URM has inferior ECs, inferior rank, inferior test scores, etc.</p>

<p>"Diversity is necessary for the college enviornment"</p>

<p>True, but so are leadership and academic competence. </p>

<p>"If you look at individuals asians, sure there are people with high test scores, great extracurriculars, etc. But there are white kids, black kids, and hispanic kids with high test scores and great extracurriculars too."</p>

<p>Yes, true too. So those URM should get accepted if he/she can beat out an asian or white person in at least one of the categories Saugus mentioned. I agree with Saugus that it is when everything (EC, rank, test scores, or even essay) about that URM is inferior to an asian/white and he/she gets accepted over that asian/white, then it becomes unjust. </p>

<p>How can you say otherwise?</p>

<p>KitKatz, I don't know where this is coming from. If you look at my posts in this thread, you'll see I'm generally against affirmative action. My point was that things is not as valuable in quantity, specifically any one type of applicant in this case. You say that literally everything is inferior. Is that really true or is just objective data inferior? If the person has a different viewpoint or culture they bring to the college enviornment, that's something that's not inferior because it's unique and therefore more valuable.</p>

<p>You also have to think about resources. Would you blame a good kid with somewhat "inferior" stats if they were from a poor neighborhood and an inner city school? Compared with a kid that goes to a college prep school? Which one tried harder?</p>

<p>icfireball: </p>

<p>At first, I didn't want to say it, but let me share my experience with you and see if you can understand how unfair AA is from my point of view.</p>

<p>I for one come from a poor neighborhood. My parents and I are immigrants who recently got our greencard. Before we came here, I lived with my grandparents, who are farmers in rural China. </p>

<p>I have a lot of responsibility taking care of my sister, my family, etc. Heck, I start homework every night around 9-10 o'clock because of all the cooking, cleaning, and looking after my sister I have to do and don't sleep until 2-3 in the morning. I am completely limited to normal school activities because there is no means for me to go to UCSD or some other college to intern for those professors etc. That is working hard. However, I still have to work extra hard to get outstanding ECs, scores and whatever typical asians (2250+ SAT, 750+ SATII, #1 in rank, 8 APs with all scores 4 and above) have in order to stand a chance. My background is no different than some urm. In fact, it is tougher than most. I had language barriers to deal with and the culture of "close family ties" and eldest girl taking care of the younger ones. We are a middle/lower income family (hell, we still have dialup internet). But just because of my race, I have a lower chance of getting in than urm. Do you think that is fair for me?</p>

<p>If my scores and whatever were bad, and there was an urm with the same economic background, score, whatever, when an admission officer look at me and then look at that urm, then they will accept that urm because they already have too many asians. That is the truth, even my counselor told me so and that is why she told me that my original score of (2160 was not competitive enough despite my situation). It all comes down to the fact that I am asian. Is it really fair for me--having to work harder than an urm with the same background in order to achieve the same result?</p>

<p>Don't tell me it's my culture. Don't the US emphasize education as well? When the school is compulsory and in China, it's not? Besides, my extended family is of the peasant class, not some educated group of people in Beijing or Shanghai</p>

<p>Yes, environment is important, economic situation is important. But race??? that's just bs.</p>

<p>@icfireball: Why are you even bringing up economic status at this point? We've already said that we agree that that should be taken into consideration. Assuming an Asian and an URM have the same economic background: YOU determine your ECs, grades, rank, and test scores. You cannot control your race. I was under the impression that this country had ridden itself of discriminating against people for something that they could not help. And exactly how different are viewpoints going to be if you are from the same social background? If you're poor, you're going to have had a hard life. If you're middle class, you're going to have had an average life. If you're rich, then you are going to have had a good life. Where does race come in? If you are a poor Asian then you ate rice and if you are a poor Hispanic then you ate Tortillas? There's almost no difference whatsoever! Viewpoints have nothing to do with race! It depends on the person and the way they grew up!</p>

<p>@KitKatz: That is a horrible and sad story. And it sucks that despite your efforts, you may still be passed over for a URM with inferior statistics who may even have a better economic status.</p>

<p>I'm going to send a nasty complaint to Princeton to make them change their ways.</p>

<p>@Saugus: I don't know why you're trying to convince me that AA by race is bad. I've already said that I disagree with AA many times. I wasn't defending AA, I was just trying to describe an observation. Applicants are extremely complex– a lot of people look at a couple of numbers and exclaim their better than other applicants or more valuable than other applicants. My point is that the valuableness of applicants has to do with the availability of those types of applicants. If you're the only person that applies to Harvard that can twirl batons, you're likely to get in. If you have tons of other people a lot like you, it's harder to get in.</p>

<p>@KitKatz: I'm sorry to hear of your hardships and I wish you the best of luck getting into college. I hope you wrote about that in your essay. Keep in mind the purpose of the essays. To explain your background and who you are as a person. To change preconceived notions of who you are in the rest of the application.</p>

<p>You guys all need a good laugh to ease the tension on this board. Make sure to put your volume up for this link (It's sure to make you fall on the floor at the end!):</p>

<p>YouTube</a> - Funny baby! You must see this! :)</p>

<p>And oh yeah, KitKatz, I think your story is very compelling and that you won't be passed over just because of an URM. But who knows? A lot of you guys are forgetting that your applications will be compared to your regional peers. And most likely - just from my own speculations - asians will be compared to asians, whites to whites, blacks to blacks, and so on. The best we can do is make our Application stand out and cross our fingers. I read a lot of your comments and some of the stuff said breaks my heart. However, hearing all your opinions actually enlightens me. Yes, some of us may be bitter at the system, and some of us just want to play it out to our advantage. But we should be careful not to be so bitter or comfortable that we become insensitive and selfish toward our own human fellow, no matter what race or background he may come from. Applaud him; do not disparage his efforts. Who cares that he/she may come from old money, or has a URM hook, or is a super stud Asian athlete? Prize the individual, because that is what he/she is. Not a generalization. And DO NOT play the victim (of race, racism, reverse-racism, Affirmative Action, the establishment, poverty, wealth, etc.) That's self-defeating and we all deserve more.</p>

<p>At the end of the day, we're just a bunch of seventeen-year-olds with our whole lives ahead of us. And trust me that many of your opinions will flip-flop through out your lifetime. I find that the more I meet people, the more my mind changes, and the less narrowed my thoughts become. As teens, we've barely seen the world. Do I support AA? Oh gosh...you just don't know how many times I've flip-flopped on that question. lol.</p>

<p>Geesh, and I promised myself not to post again on CC till the end of March.</p>

<p>Happy New Year!</p>

<p>Thanks...I did write that in my essay :) and you are right bizzybuddy--I guess I'm just feeling stressed and wanted to pick a fight. thanks for the video. you are a real pal ;)</p>

<p>@Icfireball</p>

<p>I understand your observation. There are few URM applicants, hence why there are called URMs. Therefore, they should have a better chance of being accepted and will help diversify the class.</p>

<p>I think that is an extremely callow and insensitive way of looking at it. I've already argued against your argument about URMs diversifying the class with their viewpoints, and why it is wrong to use race as a factor. They bring NOTHING whatsoever that Asian candidates with the same statistics and economic background would not. Given that your actual stance on the issue is concord with mine, I assume that you understand what my point is. </p>

<p>@bizzyjudy: That video scared me and made me jump back a little. Playing the victims of Affirmative Action is appropriate because we actually are the victims. To ignore it is kind of like asking an African American in the 1950s to ignore Jim Crow laws. I do agree with your prize the individual statement, though, which has been my point all the time.</p>