Princeton and Affirmative Action..? Chances?

<p>Wow. Didn't know you were so tough. You can call people idiots over the computer! Hope you fell great about how cool you are. I mean I only wish I could be half as cool as you.</p>

<p>Or approximately 3% of the class.....and labeling this post (and affirmative action) was kind of inappropriate if you wanted it to be all about you...:).</p>

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I agree with the above if I get accepted to my colleges I want it to be based on me, not my race.

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<p>You have no control over that. Whether you like it or not, you will be accepted because you are an exceptionally strong black applicant, not because you are an exceptionally strong applicant who happens to be black.</p>

<p>I'm regretting putting affirmative action in the title of this thread.</p>

<p>I like how Saugus makes it sound like 80% fewer blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans would be a good thing.</p>

<p>jroc92- I think your chances are good. Which means nothing, really, since admissions is very unpredictable. You should perhaps do some more prep for standardized tests to pump up. And be sure to write very focused essays. </p>

<p>I am an alum of the class of 1977- one of the early graduating classes with women who attended all four years. It was a great privilege and blessing to go to a school that few people like me had previously attended. There were AA and Asian Americans as well as international students there at the time. Consequently, there are indeed African American legacy students there now- some of the children of my classmates and those of the folks from before and after my years.</p>

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icfireball
So as you can see, a black student in D.C. is far more likely to perform well because their public schools have a wealthy "politicians, statesmen, and international businessmen" tax base and great funding.</p>

<p>Also, D.C. is 55.6% black whereas Mississippi, the state with the largest proportion of African Americans, is 36.66% black. Moreover, Mississippi has a median household income of $34,473 where as D.C. has a median household income of $58,526, almost a $25,000 difference! Since over half the population is black in D.C., this means that a very good proportion of the black population in D.C. have a household income higher than the median household income of ANY race in Mississippi, let alone blacks, which according to you would be much lower. And unlike D.C., the South is still very much segregated.

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<p>Obviously you're misinformed. The D.C. Public School System is arguably the worst in America (this is a point that politicians bring up all the time and if you keep up with politics and the news, then you'll know that this is one of the hottest issues right now). </p>

<p>I like how you tried to be cute by closing your last post with my very valid statement that you're basing your argument off of frivolous data and silly assumptions; however, I'll have you know that all of my black relatives live in DC, I am a black person who lives 20 minutes away from DC, I keep up with the news and with politics, and that I have 3 relatives employed in all levels of the DC public school system (middle school, high school, and college) so your counter is neither effective nor accurate.</p>

<p>I don't know what parts of DC you've seen or visited, but the boundaries between the black and white communities are EXTREMELY apparent. Many of the black people in DC live at or BELOW the poverty line. Again, this is information that I know from life experience, not random data that I've taken out of context to support a weak and false point.</p>

<p>I'm also curious, were you accepted to Yale? Because I was and as an admitted student you gain access to a website that allows you to view all of the students admitted from any given state. Upon glancing at the 8 students accepted to Yale early action this year, I've found that 6/8 of them are white (the other two don't have profile pictures) and that 4/8 of them attend prestigious private schools. Therefore, I was right: it's the rich, white, private school kids who account for the abnormally high admit percentage and not poor black students who are benefiting from affirmative action.</p>

<p>''I like how Saugus makes it sound like 80% fewer blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans would be a good thing.''</p>

<p>Because more deserving applicants are being robbed because they are Asian. Are you suggesting that Asians deserve to be discriminated against?</p>

<p>I'm saying that an education is vastly improved by a variety of viewpoints. I wouldn't want to attend a school that was almost entirely composed of white and Asian students, and I don't think that such a school would offer the best experience possible.</p>

<p>These schools are in the business of providing their students with such an experience, and are going about it as they see fit. If you think your experience would be damaged by this diversity, feel free to apply to less diverse schools.</p>

<p>Diversity is something good, but should it take precedence over merit?</p>

<p>TheWerg is right on target. </p>

<p>These universities want to cultivate thinkers and leaders. How can you truly think if you've only been in an environment with few different ideas, and how can you lead different people when you've only associated yourself with only a few cultures? Colleges place appropriate effort to avoid these situations.</p>

<p>TheWerg:
You raise a valid point in that diversity is a very important factor for an enriching college experience. The issue at hand is that reverse discrimination is being used to obtain that kind of diversity. We have to ask ourselves, is it really worth it? </p>

<p>Also, affirmative action is bringing down the standards for underrepresented minority. Why aim for a 2300+ SAT score and a 4.0 when you can get in with a score around 2100 and 3.7? Take the creator of this thread for an instance. If he weren't black, he would have to work on getting his SAT score up. Since he is an URM however, his attitude is: why bother? </p>

<p>AA action hurts overrepresented populations because qualified applicants are being rejected. It's hurting URM's because it's lowering their standards and effectively "dumbing them down" in the long run. The only ones that win are colleges because their diversity makes them look more attractive.</p>

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LOL.</p>

<p>OH. Oh I'm sorry. Maybe that's a negative result of affirmative action? How does that explain the stats? It merely reiterates how terrible affirmative action is.

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<p>Yes I agree. I don't udnerstand how you could have construed my post as pro-affirmative action. i'm vehemntely opposed to the process.</p>

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Dontno is generalizing too much.

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<p>Yes it's a generalization. Some blacks are intellectually qualified to attend Yale Law school, but a huge percentage aren't (about half according to the article I cited). </p>

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Well the conclusion of this thread is that jroc is an idiot. But will still get into Princeton.</p>

<p>Also that affirmative action is bad and that asians aren't politically involved enough to change it.</p>

<p>Wow. Talk about not pc.

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<p>I feel as though some of your opposition to AA is personally biased (i.e. you're Asian.) I believe opinions should be based on objective principles. If the main impetus of your opposition is personal in nature, then I disagree with the foundation of your belief. If however you have philosophical arguments to buttress this emotional foundation, then I'll accept that.</p>

<p>@ The Werg: You have an excellent argument, I applaud you for that. But how many more deserving people are being robbed of an elite education because of it? Lots of rejected applicants are more capable than those who were accepted. Is it fair to punish someone for their race? Are you saying to take a #8 with a 2,170 SAT over a #1 with a 2,400, just because one is Hispanic and the other is Asian? It's easy to make your argument when you're not Asian. (I'm assuming that you are not.) How would you feel if you were Asian? Wouldn't these seem racist and disgusting to you?</p>

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I like how Saugus makes it sound like 80% fewer blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans would be a good thing.

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<p>I object to the implication of this statement which you then almost explicitly state later.</p>

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I'm saying that an education is vastly improved by a variety of viewpoints. I wouldn't want to attend a school that was almost entirely composed of white and Asian students, and I don't think that such a school would offer the best experience possible.

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<p>You clearly believe that a "black perspective", a "white perspective", and an "Asian perspective exist." The only true diversity is that of ideas. If the school is 100% Asian, but a wide variety of ideas persist on campus (conservaitve vs. liberal, religious vs. secular, academically minded vs. well-rounded, nerd vs. partier, etc...), then diversity is surely realized.</p>

<p>Just accepting blacks doesn't guarantee a variety of viewpoints. I know plenty of liberals that have almost identical political and social positions that are common amongst blacks. I know plenty of whites/Asians who grew up in similarly impoverished neighborhoods. One of the white people I know is a professional rapper.</p>

<p>If this argument was applied to socioeconomic level (i.e. poor people have a markedly different viewpoint than rich), then I'm be somewhat more sympathetic to it. I believe economic status has a more far reaching affect on one's background than race (i.e. a suburban black or the pejorative "oreo" is almost identical in culture to a suburban white).</p>

<p>All us asians should really double-up and end this affirmative action policy, once in for all!
Clearly, if a school is rejecting a 2400/2400, 4.0, brainy dude for a 1500/2400, 3.0/4.0, then there's something wrong. But I agree that nothing has been done about AA because no one's really spoken up.</p>

<p><b>TO CHOI:</b> When did I ever say my attitude was "why bother". One of the main reasons for my starting this thread was to recieve advice about how I could better myself on my Princeton application. And were you rejected to some of your top school choices because it seems like you have a lot of resentment about these colleges rejecting Asians <b>at all</b></p>

<p><b>And to dontkno</b>: ..."the pejorative 'oreo'"...that was seriously an ignorant comment. Why is that an intelligent black youth is always perceived as acting "white". Your statement simply perpetuates a stereotype. I'm truly disappointed because I was actually beginning to see your viewpoint in the issue as actually being a little valid.</p>

<p>Dontno...seriously? A debate round? I hope that's a joke. </p>

<p>As for being biased because I'm Asian...well. I mean, bias exists on any major issue right? Any person's background, whether it be socioeconomic, ethnic, political, or freaking whatever, these individual parts of the whole will always affect how a person thinks. I never said that AA is OBJECTIVELY bad. Because that would be impossible. Nor can anyone, including you, say that AA is objectively good (though I know you're not).</p>

<p>@Kwu: That kind of characterization is why I oppose AA. I mean for minority students who are qualified regardless of what we do, ppl will attribute our acceptance to race.</p>

<p>Moreover, dontno is very right. As a suburban black I can tell you that myself and others probably have had experiences just the same as our white students and have similar conceptions. In fact the majority of my friends are white or Asian, but we have different views not neccesarily bc of race, but bc of our opinions. </p>

<p>Choi this: " If he weren't black, he would have to work on getting his SAT score up. Since he is an URM however, his attitude is: why bother?"</p>

<p>That is absolutely NOT true, on a personal level I was determined to apply to top schools but I had a bad SAT (2070) that I knew would not be good enough, so I tried the ACT and got a 34 specifically bc I did not want to be accepted with a score that is not comparable to those my Asian or White counterparts.</p>

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Obviously you're misinformed. The D.C. Public School System is arguably the worst in America (this is a point that politicians bring up all the time and if you keep up with politics and the news, then you'll know that this is one of the hottest issues right now). </p>

<p>I like how you tried to be cute by closing your last post with my very valid statement that you're basing your argument off of frivolous data and silly assumptions; however, I'll have you know that all of my black relatives live in DC, I am a black person who lives 20 minutes away from DC, I keep up with the news and with politics, and that I have 3 relatives employed in all levels of the DC public school system (middle school, high school, and college) so your counter is neither effective nor accurate.</p>

<p>I don't know what parts of DC you've seen or visited, but the boundaries between the black and white communities are EXTREMELY apparent. Many of the black people in DC live at or BELOW the poverty line. Again, this is information that I know from life experience, not random data that I've taken out of context to support a weak and false point.</p>

<p>I'm also curious, were you accepted to Yale? Because I was and as an admitted student you gain access to a website that allows you to view all of the students admitted from any given state. Upon glancing at the 8 students accepted to Yale early action this year, I've found that 6/8 of them are white (the other two don't have profile pictures) and that 4/8 of them attend prestigious private schools. Therefore, I was right: it's the rich, white, private school kids who account for the abnormally high admit percentage and not poor black students who are benefiting from affirmative action.

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<p>First let me preface this by saying that I'm willing to admit that you may be right based on personal experience, but I'm not interested in personal anecdotes without evidence.</p>

<p>Fact: The District of Columbia spent more money per student ($13,187) than any state in the country in 2001-2002, according to a June 2004 report by the U.S. Census Bureau. Near the top of the list were New York ($11,546), New Jersey ($11,436), Connecticut ($10,001) and Massachusetts ($9,856).</p>

<p>That's public schools. Not rich private or charter schools. Public schools.</p>

<p>You said "I was right: it's the rich, white, private school kids who account for the abnormally high admit percentage and not poor black students who are benefiting from affirmative action."</p>

<p>I never said it was poor black kids benefiting from affirmative action. If I had, that would have made a pretty strong case for loads of admits from Mississippi. My thought was that middle or upper income black kids from D.C., where public school funding is excellent, might cause a higher proportion of admits from D.C.</p>