Princeton and Affirmative Action..? Chances?

<p>Tyler. Sorry to hear that you're distressed by the fact that I didn't respond to your "arguments" point by point. I usually only make responses to posts that are logical and coherent. </p>

<p>Your arguments are well thought out. You just don't think very well. </p>

<p>But if you must, I'd say that your posts are completely non-topical...seeing as how many of the posters are disputing AA as a policy in general, not whether or not it's legal. Most of your posts involve endless babble about how it targets minorities and blah blah blah. Great. That's fantastic. Thank you for giving us a definition of AA as it operates today. It doesn't actually dispute any of the claims that other people are making. You can't just respond to an argument with: "Well...it just is. GOSH." </p>

<p>And the analogy? It was retarded. I'm sorry.</p>

<p>Oh and bizzyjudy: I'm assuming that ad hominem goes out the window when both people whip it out right? Cuz dear tyler here decided to go through my previous posts (something that a lot of people like to do apparently) and said pretty much the same thing.</p>

<p>"They don't want REAL diversity. They want nice numbers to put on their brochure."</p>

<p>It is indeed for the brochure. Schools try hard to make themselves attractive to potential applicants, and good diversity numbers are an important bragging point.</p>

<p>If you don't think that I think well, then show that you think better. In fact, you have not demonstrated any particularly "good thinking" on this entire thread. </p>

<p>you said, </p>

<p>
[quote]
If AA was all about diversity, why wouldn't asians be counted in it?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Is that "good" thinking? Then I guess my "definition of AA" was incredibly helpful to you, so you can understand that asians ARE important to diversity, they simply are not underrepresented on top college campuses. </p>

<p>You went on to say,</p>

<p>
[quote]
Hm. Why are there more asians at colleges than blacks?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>A good question. I have answered it before <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/568159-race-college-admissions-faq-discussion-2-a-41.html#post1061520607%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/568159-race-college-admissions-faq-discussion-2-a-41.html#post1061520607&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I also ask, how was my analogy "retarded"? It was certainly not perfect, but I'm curious as to what you disagreed with.</p>

<p>Haha. This is hilarious. You should teach a course of Race and Gender. That post is just...I mean WOW. I can't believe you honestly think that that's why there's such a gap that exists.</p>

<p>Disclosure: I'm a second-generation Korean-American myself.</p>

<p>I mean, what Tyler09 is saying is true. Family environment (including socioeconomic factors, education level of parents, etc.) is one of the most important factors in academic success (or at least, there's a very strong correlation).
And compared to the average <em>East Asian</em> (this is NOT true of South Asians, for example, which is why it's absurd that Filipinos, Cambodians, etc. don't benefit from AA), the average African-American's background is much worse. Generally, East Asians that have immigrated over have the benefit of money and education behind them - if they weren't advantaged in some way, they wouldn't be able to come here! Obviously, this is not true of all immigrants, and as more Asian-Americans are entering the population naturalized, this is starting to change. Nevertheless, the average East Asian comes from a better background than the average African-American.</p>

<p>dontno:</p>

<p>how religious one is: subjective</p>

<p>height: irrelevant to diversity (random distribution)</p>

<p>weight: irrelevant to diversity (random distribution)</p>

<p>attractiveness: subjective - one man's trash is another man's treasure</p>

<p>political party: not inherent - changes over time, also youth, especially college students have a strong tendency to be liberal.</p>

<p>how heavy one drinks: how does this matter at all?</p>

<p>how many times a week does one go out socially: actually, this is used for all intents and purposes – admissions officers try to find people that interact well with others.</p>

<p>Stance on abortion/gay marriage/affirmative action/welfare/immigration: gets into the same thing as political party– it's subject to change and college youth are overwhelmingly liberal.</p>

<p>Anyways, the point is, none of the categories you mentioned are relevant. That's not to say that diversity isn't partly for political correctness reasons, but you're kinda missing the point. The fact is, diversity is important to a college education.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Haha. This is hilarious. You should teach a course of Race and Gender. That post is just...I mean WOW. I can't believe you honestly think that that's why there's such a gap that exists.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'll just count you out of this debate MYSOJ, you clearly have no desire to construct any intellectual thoughts. You sound very... high school.... for a college student. Which is disappointing, as I figured somebody who holds themselves in such high regards would be willing to show they are at least half as intelligent as they think they are. At the very best, posts like these are not helpful to anyone.</p>

<p>Wasn't aware that we're "Debating." Them is strong words Tyler.</p>

<p>Just curious MYSOJ:</p>

<p>
[quote]
I can't believe you honestly think that that's why there's such a gap that exists.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In Tyler's post he states why he believes culture is the main reason for the white-black acheivement gap. You seem to disagree with this stance (well your sarcasm implies this).</p>

<p>Care to explicitly state the true reasoning for the gap?</p>

<p>@ icfireball:</p>

<p>Your post is retarded. I'll take a few of your points:</p>

<p>Religious observance is subjective, so thus it's irrelavant for diversity purposes. Yes it's also subjective that America is a more religious nation than say China?!?!? You fricking kidding me? Religiosity can be quantified (amount of service attendance, the religious scale Richard Dawkins supplies in "The God Delusion", acceptance of evolution or creationism, etc..). So it's all just subjective right? I guess it's subjective that the middle eastern muslim countries are somewhat religious right? How can you take your own argument seriously?</p>

<p>Heigh and weight: not really irrelavant to diversity. in fact many men make their decision based heavily on this (i.e. ASU). Additionally, college is a place where romantic relationships are common. So these physical characteristics are relavant for that type of social environment.</p>

<p>How heavy one drinks: Another huge question many people take into account when choosing a college. Different social cultures exist at every college and it's important that everyone feels welcome. Thus different, and diverse, social environments should be provided by the students, i.e. frat parties for drinkers and movie nights for teetotaler.</p>

<p>All political party affliation and viewpoints: This was your worst disagreement. You've got be kidding? One of the biggest points of diversocrats in the inclusion of different viewpoints. Who cares that it's not inherent? It's important to have at least a nominally diverse group of people who can introduce others to different perspectives. I honestly can't even continue arguing this.</p>

<p>I've never been honestly more flabergasted at a post on CC. Your post had no logical foudation. Here's the translation:</p>

<p>"Nah, uh."</p>

<p>
[quote]
@ icfireball:</p>

<p>Your post is retarded. I'll take a few of your points:</p>

<p>Religious observance is subjective, so thus it's irrelavant for diversity purposes. Yes it's also subjective that America is a more religious nation than say China?!?!? You fricking kidding me? Religiosity can be quantified (amount of service attendance, the religious scale Richard Dawkins supplies in "The God Delusion", acceptance of evolution or creationism, etc..). So it's all just subjective right? I guess it's subjective that the middle eastern muslim countries are somewhat religious right? How can you take your own argument seriously?</p>

<p>Heigh and weight: not really irrelavant to diversity. in fact many men make their decision based heavily on this (i.e. ASU). Additionally, college is a place where romantic relationships are common. So these physical characteristics are relavant for that type of social environment.</p>

<p>How heavy one drinks: Another huge question many people take into account when choosing a college. Different social cultures exist at every college and it's important that everyone feels welcome. Thus different, and diverse, social environments should be provided by the students, i.e. frat parties for drinkers and movie nights for teetotaler.</p>

<p>All political party affliation and viewpoints: This was your worst disagreement. You've got be kidding? One of the biggest points of diversocrats in the inclusion of different viewpoints. Who cares that it's not inherent? It's important to have at least a nominally diverse group of people who can introduce others to different perspectives. I honestly can't even continue arguing this.</p>

<p>I've never been honestly more flabergasted at a post on CC. Your post had no logical foudation. Here's the translation:</p>

<p>"Nah, uh."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Why are you getting all worked up? Can you not discuss reasonably this without flying off the handle with ad hominem attacks?</p>

<p>RELIGION:
I don't think you understood my argument, although I don't blame you since I didn't elaborate. By subjective, I meant that religion is not in innate characteristic of a person. It can be changed, converted, influenced, etc. Also, where does one draw the line between culture and religion. For example, scientific surveys show that between as high as 50% to 80% of the population of China are cultural adherents or even outright religious adherents of Buddhism.</p>

<p>HEIGHT & WEIGHT, OTHER BODY CHARACTERISTICS:
When I said they were irrelevant to diversity, I meant that they have a neutral impact on diversity because those are characteristics that are not selected for and therefore occur in more or less a random distribution.</p>

<p>DRINKING, SOCIAL:
Again, this has to do with identity. Certain colleges have a culture that promote drinking or various other social things. One of the reasons people apply to a college is the match they have to a college's social enviornment. This is a matter of a college's identity and culture and in this case, the applicants choose the college, not vice versa.</p>

<p>POLITICAL PARTIES/IDEOLOGY–
First, political party affiliation and ideology are subject to change based on life experiences, aging, education, etc. Second, colleges already have a wide array of ideological beliefs so diversity isn't an issue here. My point that majority of American college students was just an observation that there is automatic lopsidedness in representation of political beliefs in terms of proportions of the population at colleges.</p>

<p>^^Well, all 25 of the top 25 colleges agree that those things have little benefit to a college environment (with the exception of religion in the way that it results to culture and political viewpoints, both of which are often expressed through essays) </p>

<p>So if you are "flabergasted" and saying that it is "retarded", than all of those universities must clearly be missing something that you get.</p>

<p>On a side note, do you really think that "how much someone drinks", an activity illegal for almost all incoming freshman, is a logical criterion for college admissions?</p>

<p>FFS, he was using hyperbole to make a point, not expecting you to address and refute each exaggeration.</p>

<p>Stop while you're behind.</p>

<p>eh, I'm done here</p>

<p>I didn't realize that this was simply a "rant" thread, which is fine.</p>

<p>Okay, this is getting out of control. Ad hominem has no place in discourse, and everyone here should know that. If you want to actually discuss the issue at hand, argue against your opponent's points logically and clearly, and present your own ideas in a similar manner. Otherwise, it just devolves into pointless chaos.</p>

<p>TO ANSWER THE OP's QUESTION:</p>

<p>Yeah you have an awesome chance, lucky you</p>

<p>I wish i was black... or native american</p>

<p>
[quote]
Ad hominem has no place in discourse, and everyone here should know that. If you want to actually discuss the issue at hand, argue against your opponent's points logically and clearly, and present your own ideas in a similar manner. Otherwise, it just devolves into pointless chaos.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>TheWerg, I couldn't have said it better. </p>

<p>I am asking posters to stop using the word "retarded" and to argue a point rather than call someone "dumb." </p>

<p>Most of this discussion is operating on a high level of critical thinking, exploring ideas and perceptions. Please don't crash the plane with words that insult the other person, even if you disagree. You only lower yourself to the level that you accuse.</p>

<p>dontno, I was actually going to expound upon that...but then realized that that was ACTUALLY going to be offensive to a lot of people, and not just tyler09 and other fools. So..I'm just going to stop there. </p>

<p>Unfortunately we (as a society) have a very "PC" point of view about a lot of things...to the point where it just clouds the actual point and places this ruse of fairness and equality. To be honest, not all people are equal, and different cultures and races think differently. It's not their fault...it's just an upbringing.</p>

<p>Oh. OOPS I've already said too much.</p>

<p>L. O. L.</p>

<p>@ MYSOJ:</p>

<p>I don't think what you're hinting at is entirely un-PC. I think almost everyone would agree that various races have, on average, different cultural values. Largely, in America, Asians parents bestow upon their children a strong work ethic and the importance of education. In the black community, mostly the lower class black community, social mobility through educational attainment is largely mocked with terms like "acting white".</p>

<p>I think most people would agree with the idea that culture explains the black-white-Asian achievement gaps. I think Tyler09 even said this much.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It's not their fault...it's just an upbringing.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This makes me think you agree with the culture hypothesis. What would be very un-PC is if you surmised the gap was due in part to genetic racial differences. But I assume you don't agree with that assessment.</p>