Princeton answers to Jian Li claims

Parents Forum
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<p>^^My theory on the origin of the Asian (especially Chinese) focus on SAT scores is that it is a carry-over from China. China has a two thousand year history of hiring for lucrative government jobs based on a difficult and impartial civil service exam. It was the one way that a poor boy with no prospects could lift himself out of poverty and into the middle class. </p>

<p>So it's easy to see how over the centuries the Chinese populace as a whole became obsessed with The Test as the key to success and achievement. It's also easy to see how immigrants to this country might easily, and mistakenly, ascribe the same status to the SAT as the civil service exam back in China. This could help explain why we have Asian nighborhoods dotted with SAT prep schools and also why we often see Asian parents who are baffled that the 2400 alone didn't get junior into SkyHigh Ivy U.</p>

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<p>"Asian kids in my town are tutored privately almost without exception"</p>

<p>better than being lazy.</p>

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<p>
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better than being lazy.

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</p>

<p>Who says the non-tutored kids are lazy? That's a huge assumption. Last year the val & sal were non-tutored Irish boys. In my town, Irish kids are a minority.</p>

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<p>"Both are Chinese-born immigrants.
Both are inclined toward a math/engineering.
One is female and ranked #2 (SAT scores unknown to us, but likely very high)
The other is male and ranked #3 or #4. </p>

<p>It seems to me that if you took those stats associated with no identifying info whatsoever, you would get the same result. If Princeton is going to pick only one math/engineering student from the given high school....they are going to pick the one with the higher rank.</p>

<p>So where is the discrimination against Asians? (The fact that the student they did pick is Asian kind of negates that inference in any case)."</p>

<p>I'm glad calmom reminded us of this. I also have been saying this over & over on other threads, in College Admissions. Not only are the available spots limited, from any one school, but gender is an important factor. It is slightly easier for an Asian female to be accepted to Stanford from in-State vs. an Asian male -- due to NUMBERS OF ASIAN MALES APPLYING. And of course, in a tight race, a tip like rank, as she said, can tip the scales.</p>

<p>Also understand that if this high school happened to be top-heavy in Asian students in the sciences, but other schools in NJ were weak in those aspects, it is probable that both students would have been accepted from Jian's h.s., in an effort to fill any gaps at P. Choices are regional as well as school-specific. But the point is, they don't have such gaps; they have tsunamis of applicants from the N.E., esp. male, in math/science/engineering, who are also Asian and upper-middle-class, with advantaged backgrounds.</p>

<p>And thank you to sybbie, whose long citations here & earlier in the thread, state more comprehensively what some of us have also been saying elsewhere, on many threads. The only thing I get concerned about is that these excerpts may be viewed as an either/or (diversity VS. excellence), when I believe that these U's can demonstrate that it's a both/and. It's clear that several posters have determined, or rationalized, that it's an either/or.</p>

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<p>Coureur, but I see this obsession with the Test among third generation Asian-Americans, too. European countries also have a history of lifting poor kids from poverty with scholarships & a more stat-driven admissions policy. But this is the USA, not Asia or Europe.</p>

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<p>"China has a two thousand year history of hiring for lucrative government jobs based on a difficult and impartial civil service exam. It was the one way that a poor boy with no prospects could lift himself out of poverty and into the middle class."</p>

<p>Re: "impartial."<br>
And this is what some posters are arguing, for this country. One has the luxury of being impartial when the population is HOMOGENEOUS. </p>

<p>"It's also easy to see how immigrants to this country might easily, and mistakenly, ascribe the same status to the SAT as the civil service exam back in China."</p>

<p>Of course they do this. I say "of course" because I've heard Chinese immigrant parents justify the focus on SAT, & its supposed importance in admission, based on this.</p>

<p>But as I've also said elsewhere, it's a failure to assimilate. Families who assimilate economically, politically, and even socially, but not educationally, have not assimilated.</p>

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<p>"European countries also have a history of lifting poor kids from poverty with scholarships & a more stat-driven admissions policy."</p>

<p>were they successful in fight against poverty?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Choices are regional as well as school-specific. But the point is, they don't have such gaps; they have tsunamis of applicants from the N.E., esp. male, in math/science/engineering, who are also Asian and upper-middle-class, with advantaged backgrounds.

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Good points.</p>

<p>Remember, Livingston is a wealthy town (median income about $100,00) twenty miles from Manhattan. It is about 50% Jewish & 15% Asian. The town also has two private high schools, one a Yeshiva and one a $20G+ prep school with a rolling campus & tremendous success placing kids in elite colleges. In short, the town of Livingston on its own is a highly competitive little microcosm of the northeast admissions frenzy.</p>

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<p>stats driven admissions? Yes. Scholarships? not really. In France, if you manage to get into Normale Sup, you are pretty well covered. But if you end up in some other university and don't have parents willing to support you through grad school, you drop out and get a job. I was talking to a French prof who was lamenting that one of his best students ever had had to drop out after taking a Master's degree with a wonderful thesis. The student's family was of modest means and unable to continue financing his studies. The student's advisors tried to think of ways to keep him in grad school, but with no success. So what is he doing now? Working in some menial job in a libary--shelving books. Here, we get students on work-study to do that.</p>

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<p>The importance of The Test in much of Europe is not even close to what it is in China. Europe may be stats-driven, but the big stat is grades more than any test. In Britain it's grades and the all-important interview. The test I'm talking about in China is not for college admissions -- it's for civil service jobs. So the Test becomes everything. There are no grades, essays, or interview, and high connections won't help. Success or failure all comes down to passing The Test.</p>

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<p>Actually in France, it's Baccalauréat or bust. Then, to be admitted into certain schools, there are other entrance tests. There are special classes (cours préparatoires) that are compulsory for various other schools that would be considered professional schools here , such as med school, which one can attend after the post-high school cours préparatoire. </p>

<p>The old Civil Service Exam in China (also known as Confucian exams) could be taken multiple times. Rebellions were launched by failed candidates, the most famous of which was by the leader of the Taiping Rebellion (he is the subject of Jonathan Spence's God's Chinese Son). There is a book called China's Examination Hell, whose title gives away the theme.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Success or failure all comes down to passing The Test.

[/quote]
It seems that no matter how many times it is explained to some posters they believe selective college admission should be handled the same way. Adults and students, there appears to be no way to break through this mentality. To them a better GPA and test automatically makes someone better qualified to attend a selective school.</p>

<p>And this is just hilarious</p>

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Frankly, it seems to me a few parents got so defensive of the current "holistic" approach of the elite schools because their kids, with much lower SAT & GPAs than Jian Li, got into Harvard & alike. They are the beneficiaries of the existing system.

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. I assume since my D scored in the top 1800 kids taking the ACT last year (out of 1.2 million) that she probably didn't need any help on the test variable, and as 4.0UW val the GPA/Rank was probably O.K. , too. But I never in a million years thought that was enough to guarantee her a spot at the most selective schools. The data is out there and overwhelmingly against that proposition. Why would y'all? Is there some disconnect somewhere? You don't see me over on the Duke boards whining about her waitlist or claiming prejudice or unfairness. Time for y'all to grow up and move along . </p>

<p>Just a thought but is it possible that a stomp your feet two-year -old's sense of entitlement came through in the essays or rec's? It sure comes through in a lot of the posts here on this thread and it's really not very attractive.</p>

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<p>Well...with the exception of "the sky-high Ivy Univs," all of the US's public universities function like the old civil service exams. If you have high enough scores and GPA, you're in. Furthermore, merit scholarships depend ONLY on GPA/rank and SAT scores. The Ivies are PRIVATE institutions; there were no equivalents back in ancient China. </p>

<p>And for those who think the old civil service exams were all impartial...give me a break. You don't know your Chinese history. They were certianly fair at certain points of the 2000-year continum, but were often besieged by croonisim, favoritism and corruption as well.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
marite- I agree. But what about the Asians who aren't good at math, and don't play the piano, and aren't any of the other things people expect in there stereotypical Asian student? Asian students fitting this description can become discouraged because they feel like they are being held to some kind of standard of "all Asians are good at math and play a musical instrument." This is somewhat irrelevant, but: the Asian student stereotype, like many others, self-perpetuates. Asian students feel pressured to excel in math because all their Asian friends do. Most of their friends are Asian because they are ridiculed by non-Asians for excelling in math (math is just one example). And something similar can apply for immigrant Asian parents.</p>

<p>So, if schools like HYP are judging based on individual accomplishments, why run the risk of having admissions decisions being influenced by race?

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</p>

<p>I don't understand the connection between the first and second part of your statement. It would appear that Asian students are making decisions based on race: i.e reacting to stereotypes by trying to fit the stereotype even more! Are colleges to blame for this?</p>

<p>It is worth bearing in mind that there are plenty of Asian students at top colleges. Some fit the stereotype and some don't. Here is an excerpt from a recent Crimson article (accompanied by photo of freshman basketball star, Jeremy Lin)</p>

<p>
[quote]
Peipei X. Zhang ’08, Asian-American and unrepentant English concentrator, wants you to know that she does not like math. Not science, either, though she’s good at both. Economics is boring, and keeping quiet is overrated. “When I was younger, I was the ****up. I did my schoolwork, but I played a lot. I wasn’t as studious as every other Asian kid. Like, there’s a lot of shy Asian girls, but I’m not them,” Zhang says, fashionably groomed in a cable-knit sweater and tweed shorts.</p>

<p>“When I was applying to college, everybody expected me to fail, because I wasn’t fitting into the stereotype of a good Asian child, according to the traditional Asian parents. Among my parents’ friends, no parent told their child, ‘Be like Peipei,’” she says.

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</p>

<p>Maybe, other Asian parents should tell their kids to be more like Peipei. She made it into Harvard after all.</p>

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<p>curmudgeon: No. All people are saying is that race should not be rewarded.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Furthermore, merit scholarships depend ONLY on GPA/rank and SAT scores.

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Not true at all. The most prestigious merit awards are specifically NOT tied to GP/Rank/Tests alone. In fact most are decided in the same holistic fashion and on the same basic criteria as admissions at the most most-selective colleges and the Rhodes Scholarship I posted earlier on this thread.</p>

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<p>"Maybe, other Asian parents should tell their kids to be more like Peipei. She made it into Harvard after all."</p>

<p>How about this rephrase?</p>

<p>Maybe, other URM parents should tell their kids to be more like Li. He made it into Yale after all."</p>

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<p>
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Asian students feel pressured to excel in math because all their Asian friends do. Most of their friends are Asian because they are ridiculed by non-Asians for excelling in math (math is just one example).

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</p>

<p>As long as we have a culture where people ridicule others for academic success, Asian-Americans aren't the only ones with problems.</p>

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<p>Funny. As I read this thread, I remembered back to two years ago when my older son, possessed of outstanding stats, grades, community service commitment, and more importantly intellectual curiosity and personal initiative, moped around the house for weeks, certain he wouldn't be admitted to many of the top schools he'd applied to. His rationale? "I'm not Asian, they won't want me."</p>

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<p>simba, that may be what you are saying. It is certainly not what others are saying.</p>