<p>More anecdotes on kids reactions to diversity at colleges - for all its faults, our h.s. is racially diverse - roughly 55% white, 30% black, 10% Hispanic, 5% other. When s. was looking at colleges, he crossed off schools that didn't have much ethnic/racial diversity when he visited - and he's white. I hear the same over and over again from kids who've graduated from our h.s. "this college thinks they're diverse - they're nothing like h.s." It's a point of pride. Kids from our school are comfortable around people who don't look like them. I'll never forget picking up my s. one day and having him say "I go to the coolest school - there's a kid in my class who wears a - (whatever you call that little knife that Sikhs wear under their clothing)". It's not just minority kids who seek diversity. Maybe it's that people seek the familiar and for kids who've attended diverse schools, having a mix is comforting.</p>
<p>My very white son, barring of course his summer tan, absolutely has as one of his points for where he goes to school that there be diversity, both racial and economic.</p>
<p>taxguy, does this response surprise you? That many CC parents and their kids considered diversity issues in their school choices? I'm just wondering.</p>
<p>Curmudgeon, do the responses surprise me? I guess not upon reflection. However, these are folks that have posted. We haven't heard from everyone. Thus, this is not a statistically valid result.
Again, I would love to see a study of major factors that influence college admission listed by priority. Although diversity might be wanted, I really don't think that it would be more highly requested than that of a number of other factors. However, who knows? I could be in error.</p>
<p>As for myself, I couldn't care less one way or the other. I couldn't care if a school were 2% URM, 10% URM or 40% URM. Our high school was 40% Asian and that never bothered me one bit. In fact, I never thought about it. Diversity or lack of diversity would have had no affect on my college entrance decision. I would bet that it would not have affected my kids' decision either. Again, I could be in error. As a result of this discussion, I think that I will ask them.</p>
<p>I do know that the concept of diversity never was mentioned by my kids except that my daughter wanted different types of majors to associate with other than just art students, which is why she really didn't want to attend a stand-alone art school. That was the only mention of diversity that was ever considered.</p>
<p>"I know my D ditched several schools off her list for a lack of geographic diversity in favor of schools she was admitted to with greater geographic diversity (and hence a more exciting feel to her) so I am sure others have valued other diversity issues as greatly. I'm positive some would be economic or racial diversity issues ."</p>
<p>Ditto here.</p>
<p>"I knocked a few colleges off of my list for being "too white". The thought of going to a school composed entirely of other white or Asian east-coasters makes my head spin. So here's one student who would be unsatisfied."</p>
<p>And ditto again. </p>
<p>Same (though not said yet) about any with an overwhelmingly regional feel, particularly local feel. Such as has been said also on the student forums about some colleges in NJ and NY. And I'm certainly not referring only to Publics, in any region. Plenty of privates can have a strongly regional flavor -- so much so that the student body is <em>less</em> diverse even than what was experienced at the high school. Been there, done that: they seek to broaden their horizons & to maximize the mix. It's one of the great things about Georgetown, about Columbia, about many other schools. You get that mixture on the undergrad level, not just the graduate; & not just internationals, but a national + internat'l spectrum.</p>
<p>Taxguy, it is true that you have not heard from everyone. I doubt that many students that might be seeking a mostly Caucasian school would post this proudly b/c it would probably be viewed as politically incorrect by most people.</p>
<p>S1 chose one LAC over another for a variety of reasons. One of them was diversity.
S2 chose his college primarily on academic grounds but revels in the fact that his friends are diverse in terms of geography, ethnicity, religion, extracurricular and academic interests.</p>
<p>
[quote]
S2 chose his college primarily on academic grounds but revels in the fact that his friends are diverse in terms of geography, ethnicity, religion, extracurricular and academic interests.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>My son feels this way too. He has having many out of the classroom experiences that are new to him. He has been invited to a farm, had a father discuss hunting with him for an entire day, been to some multi-cultural events, heard various speakers from different walks of life, participated in religious discussions, and so on.</p>
<p>
And this , multiplied a thousand times over a thousand days is what diversity brings to a campus. The more diverse the campus the more likely these events are to happen. </p>
<p>And yes, hearing someone's perspective on hunting, or raising market animals, or living in the Middle East as a Jew in an Arab country, or being an Arab in 9/12 America, or .......they all have tremendous value when taken in the aggregate . They all are part of the college experience some of us want so desperately for our kids and that our kids crave.</p>
<p>We know this world is changing and we want them on top of the wave, not under it. This part of their education is as important as the other IMO. And just speaking for my kid and remembering where she's from, she is constantly amazed and loving it.</p>
<p>Curmudgeon, I must say that I am a bit astonished that a number of posters feel so strongly about diversity. When I was growing up, during the dinosaur years, diversity, to me, was a non-issue. My attitude was that the only race that we were talking about was human. Everyone was the same with maybe a different look or dialect. Thus, seeking a school that was racially diverse was as far from my thoughts as seeking Martians on earth, although that might have been interesting to meet a Martian.</p>
<p>Now I will admit, I certainly would have liked more foreign students from different countries for the reasons that you noted; however, it still wouldn't have made a difference to me on college choices. All that was important were:</p>
<ol>
<li>Could I get in?</li>
<li>What was the college/ grad school reputation?</li>
<li>Affordability </li>
<li>Geographic desirability</li>
<li>Quality of faculty</li>
<li>Quality of facilities</li>
<li>Quality of placement?</li>
<li>Research interests and/or faculty member specializations</li>
<li>Things to do and see at the school</li>
</ol>
<p>and....that's it. Diversity never entered my thought process. I guess if a school had a religious bent different from my own, I might have not gone there too. However, that is about all of the factors that I can think of.</p>
<p>I'm not actually sure which way this cuts as to Taxguys's proposition, but I'l copy my own post from a different thread about the UC experience:
[quote]
what is happening at the University of California campuses is kind of interesting. The system as a whole is diverse, and probably reflects the applicant pool pretty well. Thus, while Asians are over-represented compared to their population in the state, I assume that's because of a strong pro-education ethic which results in a higher percentage of Asian kids meeting the UC academic standards. But the campuses which comprise the UC system seem to be segregating. Berkeley and UCLA are almost exactly evenly balanced between white and Asian kids. But look at what's happened at the three "middle" campuses, UC Irvine, UC Santa Barbara, and UC Davis. These schools are, on an overall basis, academically indistinguishable. Virtually the same USNWR ranking, same quality of students drawn from the same pool of applicants off the same application form. But check this out: UC Irvine is 49% Asian, 34% white; Santa Barbara, less than 150 miles away, is 16% Asian, 62% white. (Cal Poly SLO is another excellent public college near UCSB with a strong engineering department which draws from about the same selectivity level - and it's 11% Asian, 76% white.) At the next academic step down, UC Riverside is 42% Asian 25% white; UC Santa Cruz: 19% - 62%. Anecdotally, I can tell you that I know of lots of the kids who have been presented with the choice and have responded as you would expect: Asian kids pick Irvine over UCSB given the opportunity; white kids vice-versa. Asian kids pick UCR, white kids - well, white kids at that academic level frequently opt for San Diego State or other CSU's over Riverside as far as I can tell, despite the fact that Riverside is an excellent, top-100 level university.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>taxguy is right, CC does not reflect the American college population. However, it does reflect the upper end of the college population. I assume that everyone on this forum has an interest in the upper end of that spectrum.</p>
<p>One more for you taxguy: in 1975, I bagged my parent's approval, a ride to school, a clothing allowance, a housing deposit and an orientation weekend at a white university in a white town to take an offer of acceptance (off the waitlist) from a more-diverse vastly-more-expensive university in a very diverse city. It was one of the best decisions of my creative life as an architect.</p>
<p>Curm, Well put.</p>
<p>Taxguy, I think that there are many students today who feel as you did at that age.</p>
<p>
I've always wanted to be in the upper end of a spectrum. ;)</p>
<p>Taxguy:</p>
<p>
[quote]
1. It has been shown that females learn differently than males, which could be very useful to both sexes, and more importantly,
[/quote]
It could be useful, but so could racial diversity. Usefulness will not cut it here for the same reason racial diversity will not cut it. You are talking about a quota system wherein 50% of every student body is made off limits to one sex or the other. If that isnt unfair, then neither are racial preferences.</p>
<p>
[quote]
2. Based on other forum posting, kids tend to be happier when there exists a reasonably balanced class from a gender perspective.
[/quote]
Well, plenty of people are happier having some degree of racial diversity than not. Cmon man. You mean to tell me if I can show that a majority of kids will be happier with racial diversity that will be a good enough reason to have racial preferences? No way. Being happier is no reason to support unfairness.</p>
<p>It is apparent that if you are gonna go blind, you need to go fully blind and let the chips fall where they may. What you will find is that because rigid academic systems select for a narrow spectrum of abilities, and because history has discriminated over women and blacks for centuries on end, guys are gonna be selected generally over gals, and whites over blacks. A truly holistic system will be just that holistic. It will take into account everything, and build a community that contains a multitude of experiences.</p>
<p>Frances McDormand won an Oscar for her performance in Fargo - a wonderful performance in a wonderful movie.</p>
<p>But, as a north MidWesterner, I was mildly insulted that playing a MidWesterner was considered some kind of huge reach for an actress that it would warrant an Oscar. As if we were some kind of exotic species. </p>
<p>I'm wondering if there is a similar sense among URMs - that there is something mildly insulting about being admitted to college to round out the white student's educational experience.</p>
<p>Maybe the white students are there to round out the URMs experience?</p>
<p>yeah... affirmative action isn't that great when it's working against you, is it...</p>
<p>Taxguy, you can count me as one more person with 2 kids who considered diversity very important in college choice, AND a person who also valued diversity as a student in the 70's. I will admit that I didn't think much about it one way or another when I chose my undergraduate college -- but at that time (1970), we had AA and both my college & law school were diverse enough that I had a good deal of contact with students from various backgrounds. My family was in Texas but I came to California for college, and after law school I chose to move to San Francisco with its ethnic & cultural diversity being probably the #1 factor that brought me to the city. I know that my son complained of lack of diversity at his LAC, and that is probably one of several factors that led him to leave, though lack of economic diversity was probably the bigger problem for him. My daughter explicitly dropped one college that originally had been high on her list after visiting because it was "too white" and "too preppy" .... and just about the first quality she mentioned to me about why she liked Barnard after visiting was that it was the first college campus she had visited that seemed really diverse. (Ethnically; gender balance not so good ). </p>
<p>So yes, diversity is really important to many of us.</p>
<p>
[quote]
affirmative action isn't that great when it's working against you, is it
[/quote]
You know, some of us privileged white folks do NOT think of everything in terms of whether it is good for me and my own. I don't feel particularly resentful that their are scholarship programs that minority students can apply for, that my kids can't -- such as the Gates scholarships -- I feel that my kids had the advantage of being the offspring of two parents educated at the two top public law schools in California, and having college-educated grandparents. It doesn't bother me at all that someone from a less-advantaged background might have an advantage. </p>
<p>I do think that it is painfully obvious to me that the real advantage in college admissions is economic, not due to racial preferences. My kids didn't really face much of risk of losing their "spot" to a black or hispanic applicant; but the open "spots" for my daughter were already tremendously restricted because they had already been claimed by mostly affluent ED applicants. Similarly, reading these boards, it is pretty easy for me to see that the families who could afford to pay for private schools during elementary and high school, or who live in more affluent public school districts also were able to provide their kids with an educational foundation that is much stronger than my kids could possibly get in the public schools they attended. I do think that my kids have a social advantage from having attended more diverse high schools ... but educationally, they simply did not enter college with an equivalent grounding, particularly in math and sciences. </p>
<p>So really, I see this whole "affirmative action" debate as one more distraction from the real issue of social class and economics, which is what truly is the most determinative of who ends up going where. The sorting isn't taking place when the kids apply to colleges in their senior year; the sorting begins when their parents sign them up for kindergarten.</p>