Princeton answers to Jian Li claims

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I wonder how much of this purported "discrimination" is just a difference in cultural values between immigrants and Americans whose families have been here for many generations.

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<p>How much of it? Probably all. It's not even just immigrants who don't want to believe what every elite college tells the applicants is important when making admissions decisions. For people with such high test scores, I'm surprised at the lack of reading comprehension.</p>

<p>curmudgeon is so right about the disconnect. Now, whether or not one AGREES that holistic admissions is a good thing is another issue entirely. But even if you think it is a crock, it is how things are done.

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<p>I don't get this either. Obviously there are network support systems within immigrant groups through their churches, cultural associations, neighborhoods. They are very savvy related to education issues such as testing and college admissions. However, you would think that the word would have gotten out by now within these communities to not only do the stereotypical ECs, but activities outside the box as well. This doesn't mean the kid can't play violin, but let him go out for drama, a "helmet" sport etc.</p>

<p>I don't think that there's a cultural disconnect in the "logic" of who should have gotten into selective schools. I hear parents every year, say, " Well, as a white male from the East Coast, my child doesn't stand a chance against all those smart Asians." Well, hahaha. Stand a chance against the Asian students!!! It's all perception.</p>

<p>Re Posts 439-441 -- & with particular regard to 441, this is a subject I brought up earlier, also, & with the same confusion/concern. Either there is not sufficient support to make such transitions, for a recent immigrant, or there is indeed a blind spot. Personally, as I look around, I don't see a lot of formal support, & I do think there has to be something deliberate that happens, regarding information. Very different interacting in an informal setting, after the fact, & I'm sure there are plenty of informal networks.</p>

<p>(I brought this up both on PF, I think, and definitely on College Admissions.) I just know that if any US citizens were to go abroad to make such a major family transplant, including intergrating into the host country's educational & political systems, most people would at least welcome a mentor/guide, let alone need one. To know what to say, what not to say, who to ask, what to read, what to learn, what the expectations, traditions, assumptions, and VALUES are, how to prosper, succeed WITHIN THE EXISTING SYSTEM, not opposed to it: judging not just from CC, but from some of my own personal & local experiences, I can't believe there is much of a comprehensive approach to the orientation process. When you add to that possible language barriers & generation barriers, I don't think it's an automatic process to assimilate from The East to The West.</p>

<p>I see such a wide variety of results, when it comes to these transitions, which tells me that those who make the transition more smoothly probably have informal support via relatives/accquaintances already here, who provided guidance at even the earliest steps.</p>

<p>In fact, anecdotally, the sophisticated Chinese Americans I know, where the parents have been in the US 20-35 years, are urging their kids to take a more eclectic "American" approach to education. For those who focus on HYP admissions, anecdotally I know one family who has encouraged their daughter's preference for psychology, drama, liberal politics, and swimming. Their son plays guitar...For those who are not focused on HYP, anecdotally I know a family sending their kids to Montessori, thinking about ADHD, whole child development, etc. Now this is the Bay Area, granted. But if my minimal data points have meaning, this wave of immigrants too will move towards the American way that values self-expression and individual drive and creativity over stellar performance in a structured mode. And, maybe, as with other waves of immigrants, we will be lucky enough to also change, to absorb some of their values.</p>

<p>My mother was a Montessori teacher. When S was growing up, I built many of the contraptions that my mother used (the ones that I remembered).</p>

<p>Alumother, I think your last demonstrate reinforces mine, actually -- illustrating the differential in accommodating. I've seen the same. And that's terrific, btw, regarding adopting/internalizing the immigrant values as well. No problem with that, & that's one reason many of us love this country. But I think there is some mythology & misinformation regarding some broad issues which affect both college admissions & some other major aspects of American life, such as:</p>

<p>(1) the limits of individual freedom in a free country;
(2) what multiculturalism is and is not -- what it does & does not imply or ensure relative to educational & political institutions;
(3) the compass of "civil rights";
(4) categories & manifestations of "discrimination;"
(5) differences between public & private institutions, far beyond whether the latter "receive public funds";
(6) implications & limitations of equality as it relates to opportunity & as it relates to result.</p>

<p>That's just for starters.</p>

<p>Epiphany, I think this whole phenomena of the intensely driven, math & science oriented academics, & focus on testing is probably just a characteristic of a small subset of a much larger & much more assimilated Asian community. Like Alumother, I don't see that pattern among the many, many Asians that my kids have grown up with. I can't think of any activity that my kids engaged in that didn't have a lot of Asians -- and at their high schools, there were Asians all over the map in terms of achievement -- A students and C students and barely hanging on students. But neither of my kids attended a high school with an intense academic focus, or intense level of competition. So I guess those competitive Asians with their hearts set on Harvard were sending their kids to different schools and we didn't meet them. And in that environment, I think the intense level of competition just tends to reinforce itself. </p>

<p>I mean, even with an understanding of the holistic nature of the process, we all know that class rank is important; and we all know that taking the "most challenging curriculum" at high school is important; and we are all looking at SAT score ranges as being important. In a highly competitive school environment, staying on top of those things hardly leaves time for much else -- which is probably wha leads them to lose sight of other factors.</p>

<p>Calmom: You are right--Li filed with the OCR. Based on what I've just read in newspaper articles, his claim will most likely be denied. They are considering his claim based on test scores.<br>
Curmudgeon: You are also right: there is a total disconnect and no one is listening. I don't think people want to hear that being in Boy's State just isn't a great ec in and of itself (unless there is significant activity) and test scores don't matter as much in the US as they do overseas. I see so many sixth graders taking SAT review courses and so many kids with 750+ scores still trying for those perfect 800's because their parents are convinced that those extra few points will get their children into the top colleges. The fact that this is ill-advised just does not seem to penetrate. From what I've seen in the papers, Li was not an outstanding candidate and I'm quite surprised he got into Yale.</p>

<p>I'll continue to let others who are Asian or have significant personal contact with large numbers of Asians talk about cultural prerogatives and assimilation. Out her on the ranch my exposure is limited. </p>

<p>Many days ago on this thread or a similar one I expressed that the disconnect was not just for one group but for a variety of folks . I admitted that 2 years ago it was for me. As the parent of a high achiever on objective markers it was difficult for me to swallow that her performance on those markers was not enough to make her admission likely everywhere. </p>

<p>Even more telling will be my posts on this board decrying the state of school awards that often left my objectively #1 (test scores, GPA, rank, schedule) daughter on the outside while lesser performing but "flashier", more popular performers were selected by the principal for recognition. There is more than one instance of me decrying the unfairness. Several that said if it was the least bit subjective, it usually went to others. Ultimately, that tide turned more in her favor , but at the time it was distressing. </p>

<p>Couple that with my natural reticence to broad brush any group and you can see why I cringe every time this thread even seems to turn in the direction of an east vs. west dichotomy. Or one group vs. another. I do suspect there is some element of culture . I also know that you don't have to be a member of any Eastern culture to feel put-upon or abused by a system you don't understand. </p>

<p>I finally read enough, talked enough, argued enough to where I came to the point of recognizing that what is , is and that D's application efforts needed to be based on what existed - not what I thought existed or even at the time what I thought should exist. </p>

<p>My big breakthrough was when it finally dawned on me (was shoved down my throat) that the process was one of selection not rejection. That it wasn't a search for the best students. It wasn't a test , it wasn't a race, it wasn't a contest where the best performing student won and lesser students failed. It was simply who this school wanted for their own institutional reasons from this group of qualified students in this year. Another school would be different. Another year would be different. </p>

<p>But somehow, even though I make my living as a communicator - I can't seem to do for the Li posters on this thread that which others did for me- I can't make you see that what is , is.</p>

<p>Alumother, thanks for the pointing out your experience. I am appalled by some of the posts here that Asian-american students are one dimensional or have limited EC's. The fact that these students are over-represented (in relationship to their population) in our most elite colleges certainly indicate that these students have a range of EC's that made them successful applicants. The fact that a large number of applicants still fail the cut reflects more of the insanity of the process than deficiencies in the applicants, be it white or asian-americans.</p>

<p>Just as a personal example. My D is on the debate team at her well-respected LAC. She has been elected into the Senate to represent her class for the next four years. She does two afternoons of volunteering. Despite going in as a science major and taking hardcore science and math classes, she has already been urged privately by the chair of English department to major in English. This is after being in the professor's class for a mere two months. Her volunteer activity is due to her accomodation to my wish, who gives her the choice of either to take on a job or to do an equivalent among of time in volunteering. I also happen to discourage her to major in science but encourage her to pursue a degree in humanity. For her high school graduation, my gift to her was a nine-volume 1876 edition of the complete writing of Thomas Jefferson. Am I an unusual first generation Asian-american parent? My answer is no. I know of many such parents. The majority of asian-american students who are at our elite colleges come from families who are just enlightened as students from other subgroups. The fact that they may need a higher test score to go along with their extraordinary EC's is the issue being raised on this thread.</p>

<p>I live in an area in which Asian-americans (from India and China) are the majority. Most of my friends and my kids' friends are Asian. I think a lot of the pressure to excel is motivated both by family values and a familiar immigrant belief that education is the way to success (I am first generation and grew up in an extremely similar household). I don't see Asian-americans in our area lack for ecs. Most of my friends' kids do seem more math/science oriented, but that could be coincidence. Most of the parents in our community do understand the college admissions process and find that the applicants who are successful really deserve to be admitted. Are there those who don't make it who probably should? Absolutely. Is that phenomenon limited to Asian applicants? Absolutely not.
The groups that really deserve our attention for purposes of diversity are the Black, Hispanic, and underrepresented Asian populations such as Mung, Burmese, etc. It's really difficult to give merit to claims by an population that is, as padad points out, "over-represented (in relationship to their population.")</p>

<p>Cur, I absolutely agree. I have pasted what you said below, so the message can come through a second time.</p>

<p>"My big breakthrough was when it finally dawned on me (was shoved down my throat) that the process was one of selection not rejection. That it wasn't a search for the best students. It wasn't a test , it wasn't a race, it wasn't a contest where the best performing student won and lesser students failed. It was simply who this school wanted for their own institutional reasons from this group of qualified students in this year. Another school would be different. Another year would be different"</p>

<p>After glancing through Professor Nieli's paper, I realized that several users on this thread have "white guilt", and some have guilt to the point where they believe punishing Asians corrects past wrongs against Blacks.</p>

<p>Also, some people here believe that they, and only they, are entitled to special treatment. They recognize that other groups have faced discrimination in this nation, but they don't care. They believe that only their group is entitled to preferential treatment.</p>

<p>For those who believe that Asians should be punished to correct for past sins, I ask, "How is that not morally wrong?"</p>

<p>For those who believe that only their race is entitled to special treatment, I ask, "Do you think people of other races who have been discriminated against have had it 'easier' than you?"</p>

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The majority of asian-american students who are at our elite colleges come from families who are just enlightened as students from other subgroups. The fact that they may need a higher test score to go along with their extraordinary EC's is the issue being raised on this thread.

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But aren't we talking about the Asian kids who DIDN'T get in? </p>

<p>We all tend to see our own little neck of the woods as being more representative than it may actually be. Your d & her Asian elite-school colleagues may be well-rounded. That is not what I see in my town. The Asian kids DO group together in similar ECs and avoid others. They DO tend to favor math/science, start SAT prep in the young grades, and get private tutors for students already earning As. The parents do not encourage relaxed, unstructured socializing. In fact, the parents of my d's Asian friends have NEVER driven the kids anywhere & they NEVER have the gang over to their homes. It is always the non-Asian parents arranging car-pooling. </p>

<p>At my d's Catholic all-girl h.s., I see similar patterns. Many posters on CC have said the same thing. So I don't see how you can reach the conclusion that Asians need higher SATs to go along with great ECs, because you apparently are seeing a very different pattern of EC activity & interests among Asian kids than many of us are seeing.</p>

<p>Really the only data that would prove actual discrimination against Asian kids in college admissions would be a broad-based study of all applications across several years. IF Asian kids with similar ECs, similar ability to pay tuition, similar grades, and similar SATS were rejected while their peers who were white kids were accepted, then there's discrimination. You can't lump in African Americans - we are paying them back for a systemic injury white America did and I for one, as another been-in-the-country-for-300 years family, am glad to do it. So just put white kids and Asian kids in a data mining application, standardize on ECs that demonstrate personal characteristics like leadership, desire to do good, and creativity, add in ability to pay full freight and donate, add in legacy, add in athletics, add in demonstrated survival of hardship, add in interesting cultural legacies like being a Coptic Christian from Jerusalem etc ....then we would know if there is discrimination. It is a multi-variable problem to solve, like it or not.</p>

<p>It may well be true that the end result is Asians need higher scores to get in. If you have a group of applications that all have the same things that benefit the school, you'll take the ones with the higher numbers. Stack B without enough kids in it, you'll take them all because if they make the threshholds of gpa, course load, testscores, you want all the other stuff they have to offer. The stack where Asian kids end up tends to be a high one and it isn't all Asian kids. There are a lot of kids who have high stats, but not great ECs, other than, say terrific piano playing or other high volume instrmuent skills. If you are in that category, regardless of your ethnic background, when there are too many of you, you are cut. I know of several Easten bloc families who have the same danged profiles as the Asians and they are indignant and upset that they highly qualified kids with amazing music skills are not accepted when another kid with other ECs is accepted at the same schools with lower scores. In this case, that other kid plays in a marching band, and apparently they wanted a fervant band member than an orchestral type. He may have had other attributes that the school liked too, that the rejected kids did not have. But on the surface, it looked pretty bad. Throw in URM (which was not the case) and you get some simmering resentment about the whole affirmative action process.</p>

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So I don't see how you can reach the conclusion that Asians need higher SATs to go along with great ECs, because you apparently are seeing a very different pattern of EC activity & interests among Asian kids than many of us are seeing.

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<p>I think it's just the opposite. Asians are getting higher SATs than they need so it looks like they need higher numbers because that's the pool, but in reality that's not what the colleges are looking at.</p>

<p>I'd like to hear from the Asian posters about this:</p>

<p>Let's assume that due to Li's suit, Princeton is forced to admit only the students with the highest GPAs and test scores. Then lets assume that as a result, Princeton's student body is composed of 80 -100% Asians. </p>

<p>Will you still consider Princeton to be one of the most desireable universities? Do you think that its reputation will remain as elite as it is? (BTW, I am NOT intimating that the answer to these question is no; I'm just curious if you would be happy with this outcome)</p>

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After glancing through Professor Nieli's paper, I realized that several users on this thread have "white guilt", and some have guilt to the point where they believe punishing Asians corrects past wrongs against Blacks.

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Well, it is clear to me that Nieli suffers from bias and has a personal axe to grind. He basically said as much when he recounted his experience as a child. So, I think it premature to use his little paper to substantiate this notion of “white guilt”. It all sounds like some guy who wants to broad brush an entire group of people in order to try giving his position additional weight. It will not take the most perceptive reader here to see through the ruse.</p>

<p>It is not a matter of white guilt. We have a whole segment of the American population that feels, by nature, that it has been robbed of something, something fundamental, to which it had a right. Apparently some whites understand this and want to correct it. There is no room here for guilt because the whites today haven’t necessarily caused the problem, though they benefit of it. The goal is to create situations wherein blacks can gain enough education and power to retrieve for themselves what this country has taken. It is only the right thing to do, rather than continue to ignore what will persist against this nation by natural law. What you are failing to see is that there is an economy here, and that it means you can’t get something for nothing. If you steal people’s lives and sense of self so that you can get “free” labor, you will later have to deal with the carnage you have created. And if you refuse to deal with that, you will have to deal with the stench of gutted carcasses and rotting bodies for as long as nature keeps them around. The civilized approach is to work against creating such a mess. But if you create it, you sould stop living in it. To do that, you need first to admit that you are in a mess and that it is a mess someone created.</p>

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Also, some people here believe that they, and only they, are entitled to special treatment. They recognize that other groups have faced discrimination in this nation, but they don't care. They believe that only their group is entitled to preferential treatment.

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Surely other groups have suffered. Even white groups, like the Irish and Italians have suffered. But suffering is not the problem here. None of these other groups, except blacks, are verily defined by having the their identities, and their dignity, even the possession of their own bodies, taken away. It is from this that we have our problems today. The only other group that comes close is Native Americans because, while they were allowed freedom to maintain their identity and dignity, their homes and in many cases their lives were destroyed. Blacks and Native Americans, above all other groups, have legitimate claims against this nation. They suffer to this very day, unlike the other groups, because those claims remain unfulfilled.</p>

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For those who believe that Asians should be punished to correct for past sins, I ask, "How is that not morally wrong?"

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Were Asians here in 1619? No, they were not. They came here so much later, and as a group they entered essentially as entrepreneurs, selling either labor or some other ware for the potential of realizing profits. That simply does not apply to blacks, and it is what makes blacks unique. When you accept a business, you also accept its debt. Asians aren’t being punished for anything. They arrived in a land of opportunity made possible by stealing millions of black bodies and crushing their souls over hundreds of years. Either those Asians, along with everyone else, are going to pay in a civilized fashion, or they are going to pay in an uncivilized fashion-- with things like 911 and worse. It is very clear to me that eventually, this country is going to pay its debt even if it has to kill itself to do it. Even if we murder every single black person in the nation to try to escape the debt, we will be left with a nation wherein no person will feel safe. There will be no such thing as reading the morning paper, taking a leisurely walk. The whole world will be against you, even if no one lifts a finger to stop you. There is no escaping what America owes by nature. No one is being punished simply because they arrived here seeking opportunity while also assuming the debt this country owes.</p>

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For those who believe that only their race is entitled to special treatment, I ask, "Do you think people of other races who have been discriminated against have had it 'easier' than you?"

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Well other groups obviously have had it easier. None of these folks are defined by having their bodies owned by someone else, right here in “The Land of the Free”. Surely bad things have happened to other people, but as a group, blacks have had it worse than all. You know, it is fairly meaningless for some guy to come here willingly, seeking opportunity, only to find it tougher than he had bargained for. It is meaningless because the guy was just an entrepreneur who made a bad gamble. That describes the overwhelming majority of Asians in this country, whether their time here has been good or bad. It describes the overwhelming majority of Hispanics, of Indians, of Pakistanis, of Russians, Germans, Dutch, English. Only one group was literally created here, against its will, and then denied the chance to join everyone else. While other groups right now pour across our borders and swarm into our schools because they see opportunity and have the confidence to take advantage of it, blacks has a result of their history, often can hardly even see the opportunity. Millions even think the nation is hostile to them, that it created AIDS to murder them. History caused this sentiment because this nation has attacked this people repeatedly, and by a variety of means. Throwing a few bucks at this for a handful of years means nothing at all. The moral imbalance of history will still persist.</p>

<p>"You can't lump in African Americans - we are paying them back for a systemic injury white America did and I for one, as another been-in-the-country-for-300 years family, am glad to do it."</p>

<p>so why put out the phony show called DIVERSITY?.....Just come out and say that blacks will get special treatment because we white are having a guilt complex.</p>