Princeton answers to Jian Li claims

Parents Forum
461

<p>To Bay, My view and response to your request as an Asian-american parent (Please note that it does not mean I endorse Li's complaint):</p>

<p>First, if Princeton only selects their students based solely on grades and test scores, then it certainly will no longer be a great institution of higher learning.</p>

<p>Now, if the student body changed as you suggested by only removing the racial barrier (hypothetical as you suggested) but keeping other selection process the same, then I don't see why it should matter because the students body is only non-diverse in color but will be diverse in all other aspects. Brandeis is a great intitution of higher learning although it has a large Jewish population due to its histroy of inception. UC Berkeley remains one of best public university despite the change in the color of the student body. Let me say this also. Wellsley, Bryn Mawr, Smith, Barnard and Mt Hoya remain elite colleges despite their single-sex admission policy. We don't perceive them as inferior to the other seven sisters that have gone co-ed. That is because beyond being comprised solely of women, the students are just as diverse as in other great institutions.</p>

462

<p>Messr. Jian Li filed a Civil Rights Complaint against Princeton with the Department of Education. Messr Li claims that Princeton unlawfully dicriminates against Asian applicants in its admission practice. Messr Li cites research by Princeton's own professors showing that racial preference for Blacks and Hispanics adversely affected the admission rates of Asians.</p>

<p>Here is the Civil Rights Act of 1964:</p>

<p>Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 states that:</p>

<p>No person in the United States shall, on the ground of race, color, or national origin, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.
Programs and activities that receive Federal financial assistance from RMA are covered by Title VI and must operate in a non-discriminatory manner. Also, a recipient of RMA funding may not retaliate against any person because he or she opposed an unlawful practice or policy, or made charges, testified or participated in any complaint action under Title VI.</p>

<p>Anyone who believes there has been an act of discriminaton on the basis of race, color or national origin, against any person or group, in a program or activity which receives RMA financial assistance, may file a complaint with the Office of Civil Rights under Title VI. The person or organization filing the complaint need not be a victim of the alleged discrimination but may complain on behalf of another person or group.</p>

<p>RMA handles Civil Rights complaints in accordance with Departmental Regulation 4330-2, "Nondiscrimination in Programs and Activities Receiving Federal Financial Assistance from USDA."</p>

463

<p>Dross, I agree. If I may, I wish to add that Japanese-americans who were interned during WWI also suffered an injustice, and it was right that apologies and some compensation were acknowledged by our government. Their suffering of course is a far cry with what african and native americans experienced.</p>

464

<p>Padad,</p>

<p>So by your response, it appears that you place no value on "diversity" at college campuses.</p>

465

<p>My daughter is white and she did consider racial diversity (and the presence of young men was non-negotiable). She learned as a white student in an all white school that when there is no real diversity, tiny differences between individual human beings become magnified to the point of being unacceptable. My younger daughter will look at racial diversity as an issue, as well, and I'm curious how that will play out because she learned as the only white girl for several years in a spectacular African American school (where she was bullied, cursed, harassed and beaten) that the absence of diversity allows the worst impulses of the sole group to be brought forth.</p>

466

<p>
[quote]
so why put out the phony show called DIVERSITY?.....Just come out and say that blacks will get special treatment because we white are having a guilt complex.

[/quote]
Diversity is one thing. Racial preference is quite another. I advocate racial preferences as one way, specially as it applies to blacks, to help achieve diversity. I advocate this not because I think blacks can’t do the work. I see my own kids, right before my very eyes, are academically superior to the vast majority of Asians and whites in this country. So that isn’t the problem. The problem is in what I know we as black folk have to endure, as an ultimate result of history, in order to get our kids there. I know most blacks are not yet able to see how they might swing this. That means at the moment precious few of us are to have the credentials to earn our place into these schools. Since there are so few of us, and since we all as Americans have an obligation to fix the mess our country has caused, I advocate putting special effort into selecting those precious few qualified blacks until such a time as we can ourselves figure out as a group how we might short-circuit the savagery that has been pushed on us since we arrived here aginst our will.</p>

<p>Maybe diversity helps rich whites. But I suspect it benefits we blacks more than everyone else, and more than many of us know. I know it has helped me overcome many of my prejudices. It is a worthy goal.</p>

467

<p>Drosselmeier, how would you (personally, I mean -- I'm asking for your own opinion) treat African American student applications versus African student applications? Or to put it another way, the applications of black students whose ancestors were slaves, whose families did and do suffer from the nation-long history of racism versus those black students who have just come to America and have no history of suffering racism in America?</p>

468

<p>Bay, on the contrary, I value diversity a lot. I just don't think skin color is a factor in diversity.</p>

469

<p>Padad,</p>

<p>Yes, I "misspoke." You place no value on "racial diversity" on college campuses.</p>

470

<p>
[quote]
Drosselmeier, how would you (personally, I mean -- I'm asking for your own opinion) treat African American student applications versus African student applications?

[/quote]
I’d treat Africans like any other immigrant group. Just because they may have black skin doesn’t mean America owes them anything. America owes them nothing at all. Indeed, if they come here, they are assuming America’s debts.</p>

<p>This is not to say Africans do not suffer similarly to American blacks, due to their long experience with colonialism. But that is an issue that differs radically from our particular case. When an African shows up here, he, like Asians, is just this entrepreneur. He may complain against racism, and that is a good thing, but the conditions here are part of the cost he needs to weigh as he attempts to do business. He can always go home if he wishes. It is quite a different situation than what blacks are going through. We have no home – except, I guess, if you wish to call America our home. Many of us are torn on this question. It is the big question for everyone.</p>

471

<p>Drosselmeier, thank you for taking the time to answer so completely and nicely. Your courtesy in imparting your point of view is much appreciated and extremely informative.</p>

472

<p>Drosselmeir, I still don't see why you are so fixed on the need for racial diversity. Yes, African Americans have faced a large amount of discrimination in the past. However, with all of the affirmative action going on, nationalized test scores haven't risen amoung African Americans.</p>

<p>Also, do you think that only African Americans have faced discrimination in this country or in the world? </p>

<p>Again, I don't see why skin color should be given any preference. If a kid comes from a successful, wealthy household, why should that kid be given any preference solely because of skin color. It makes no sense!</p>

<p>If, however, you were to argue that economic diversity is needed for colleges, I could buy into that. I certainly can see the need for a "leg up" for kids from households that are economically deprived REGARDLESS OF RACE, CREED, or RELIGION. I really don't understand why economic circumstances aren't much higher in the piority list among colleges other than knowing that it might require more scholarships.</p>

473

<p>I thought this might liven up our discussion....</p>

<p><a href="http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTNhM2JiMTU5MDZkOTUxYzA0MzU1ODUxZTM3MTk3MzI=%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTNhM2JiMTU5MDZkOTUxYzA0MzU1ODUxZTM3MTk3MzI=&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>November 15, 2006, 8:04 a.m.</p>

<p>Racism By Any Other Name
Not nice.</p>

<p>By Jonah Goldberg</p>

<p>It’s time to admit that “diversity” is code for racism. If it makes you feel better, we can call it “nice” racism or “well-intentioned” racism or “racism that’s good for you.” Except that’s the rub: It’s racism that may be good for you if “you” are a diversity guru, a rich white liberal, a college administrator or one of sundry other types. But the question of whether diversity is good for “them” is a different question altogether, and much more difficult to answer.</p>

<p>If by “them” you mean minorities such as Jews, Chinese Americans, Indian Americans and other people of Asian descent, then the ongoing national obsession with diversity probably isn’t good. Indeed, that’s why Jian Li, a freshman at Yale, filed a civil-rights complaint against Princeton University for rejecting him. Li had nigh-upon perfect test scores and grades, yet Princeton turned him down. He’ll probably get nowhere with his complaint — he did get into Yale after all — but it shines a light on an uncomfortable reality.</p>

<p>“Theoretically, affirmative action is supposed to take spots away from white applicants and redistribute them to underrepresented minorities,” Li told the Daily Princetonian. “What’s happening is one segment of the minority population is losing places to another segment of minorities, namely Asians to underrepresented minorities.”</p>

<p>Li points to a study conducted by two Princeton academics last year which concluded that if you got rid of racial preferences in higher education, the number of whites admitted to schools would remain fairly constant. However, without racial preferences, Asians would take roughly 80 percent of the positions now allotted to Hispanic and black students.</p>

<p>..........(goto link to see rest.)</p>

<p>There was a time when condescension, discrimination, arrogant social engineering along racial lines and the like were dubbed racism. And, to paraphrase Shakespeare, racism by any other name still stinks.</p>

<p>(C) 2006 Tribune Media Services, Inc.</p>

474

<p>This article tells us nothing new and is one man's opinion. "Diversity" has always been about RACE. The distinction is in an institution's INTENT in seeking diversity.</p>

<p>Intending to keep certain races out = Racism</p>

<p>Intending to bring races in = Diversity</p>

475

<p>Frankie, I strongly disagree with the content of the article. The failures cited in the article are not due to misguided intention but rather due to ineffective implementation. What I mean is that we in fact are not doing enough!!! Tony Marx, gave a passionate convocation address to this year's entering class at Amherst. He told the story of Gerald Perry, who came to Amherst in early 70's. He drowned in the course of attempting to pass the required swim test. Amherst made the mistake of not realizing that a poor black student from New Orleans may not have the opportunity to learn to swim, and Perry made the mistake of not challenging the system to accomodate a student that differs from the main student body.</p>

<p>If a university or law school admits a URM student, it is the university's responsibility to make it possible that student has the opportunity to succeed like the rest of the admits. Colleges like Amherst are well aware of this, and ample discussions have centered on how to better implement the policy of URM admission after a student has arrived.</p>

<p>The Convocation address is available at the school website as well as current debate on how to ensure all Amherst students can achieve academic success despite academic disparities at entrance.</p>

476

<p>"Really the only data that would prove actual discrimination against Asian kids in college admissions would be a broad-based study of all applications across several years." [and further defined, in the post] Or even all applications in the year of the study, would be quite an improvement.</p>

<p>I agree. (Spoken elsewhere, by epiphany;), diff. thread, but it bears repeating.) The "study" was not scientifically valid for the "conclusions" that it claims to have presented.</p>

<p>And I'm glad a couple of people have also resurrected another important flaw in the study: that it did not prove that Asians "needed" high SAT scores, merely that they had them. (Also something mentioned before)</p>

<p>As to earlier posts regarding diversity of Asian lifestyles, yes, I'm acquainted with that, too, but as SS & others have replied, these are not the ones experiencing & expressing frustration about college admissions, nor posting on CC about the unfairness of it all. Their assimilation is in process or even complete.</p>

477

<p>"I agree. (Spoken elsewhere, by epiphany, diff. thread, but it bears repeating.) The "study" was not scientifically valid for the "conclusions" that it claims to have presented."</p>

<p>How do you conclude that?</p>

<p>examined the strength of admission preferences for underrepresented
minority students, athletes, and alumni children at three highly selective
private research universities in the United States. Using data from the National Study of College Experience on 124,374 applications for admission
during the 1980s and the fall semesters of 1993 and 1997,</p>

<p>Three elites, large sample size, three different time periods. Sure looks like a scientific study.</p>

478

<p>How do you conclude that? Because only stats were considered. If stats were the only factor in admissions, then the study would be valid. But stats are NOT the only factor.</p>

479

<p>Dosselmeier,</p>

<p>Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions. </p>

<p>If you only know one of my positions, know this: I don't think that people in this nation are entitled to anything beyond life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Just because some are born Black in America does not mean they deserve preferential treatment that others do not receive.</p>

<p>The people who were enslaved and forced to work have my sympathy.</p>

<p>The people who refused to relinquish their seats on public transportation have my sympathy.</p>

<p>The people who organized marches against segregation amid threats of violence have my sympathy.</p>

<p>However, the people who believe that this nation owes them unequal treatment in a reverse fashion do not have my sympathy.</p>

480

<p>"How do you conclude that? Because only stats were considered. If stats were the only factor in admissions, then the study would be valid. But stats are NOT the only factor"</p>

<p>True.....if the study had only two applicants you have a valid point. But when a large sample is considered the other factors become a wash. It is erroneous to assume that all the rejects had other weak factors and only URM applicants had strong other factors.</p>