<p>
[quote]
It is erroneous to assume that all the rejects had other weak factors and only URM applicants had strong other factors.
[/quote]
It is erroneous to assume anything in a study. You should only make conclusions on what you have analyzed. Other factors can be critical to the outcome & you can't nonchalantly shug them off as a "wash."</p>
<p>Taxguy:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Drosselmeir, I still don't see why you are so fixed on the need for racial diversity.
[/quote]
I had typed up an additional explanation, but deleted it because it suddenly occurred to me that I am like a starving man here trying to explain the sting of starvation to an obese glutton.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yes, African Americans have faced a large amount of discrimination in the past.
[/quote]
It is worse than this. I don’t know what more to say about it, except maybe encourage you, if you really wish to sense the thing, to spend some time walking through the black communities and getting a sense of just how large America’s debt to blacks is, the debt blacks sense inside themselves. Well, lemme try this. If you have a spouse, think of her. Or think of something else you hold more precious than anything on earth. You don’t really know how much it means to you. You just take the spouse for granted. Now imagine reading this post here. Imagine I deliberately tell you I am gonna destroy that person, slowly, stripping her of her dignity over several weeks, forcing you to watch. I am going to do it for my own pleasure, heedless of the fact that we are all of the same human race. Your spouse is just this object, created for my pleasure. And I arrive there, destroy your family, and exploit everything about it as if I were shopping at the local grocery store. Imagine that my relatives comprise the police and that they are in on it, are enabling me. When I am finished having my fun, I begin to juggle knives above your spouse's head. I let a knife drop and that is that.</p>
<p>Then, realizing I have done wrong, I say “I can’t bring back your spouse. But I’ll make sure to pass a law never allowing THAT to happen again. Oh, and here is a $1,000. It ain’t much, but it should help. And if you wanna join my country club, I’ll make sure to talk to the guys, know you, in view of what happened here. Hey man, this stuff never should have happened. It really is pretty sad. Oh well…”</p>
<p>Can you ever recover from something like that? Is there even a solution I could effect for you? Hardly! The only thing left is for me to do all I could to ease your pain, including apologize, so that you might find some way to offer forgiveness. In other words, the only solution here is one you yourself create. My obligation to you is to help you create it so that you can be at peace. The last thing that will work here is for me to walk past with my own spouse, claiming you ought to just get married again and get over it because it happened last week, and that you don’t have a wife because of your own unwillingness to let go of the past.</p>
<p>Being black is something like this. It is actually worse because we feel the result of the past all the time, just hammering at us. But the perps are all dead, and now we are just surrounded by heedless folks who are casually eating the fruits of our misery. I am personally fine with this, because I figured out some time ago that no one is gonna care about anyone else unless circumstances cause them to share the same pain. That means that only blacks are gonna be able to know what I am talking about. But, I keep thinking maybe…</p>
<p>
[quote]
However, with all of the affirmative action going on, nationalized test scores haven't risen amoung African Americans.
[/quote]
That is because America is still trying to avoid dealing with the problem. It thinks everything should be fine just because it threw a few bucks our way for a few years, despite having desecrated everything in us that should have made us, us.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Also, do you think that only African Americans have faced discrimination in this country or in the world?<a href="sigh">/quote</a> No. I do not.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Again, I don't see why skin color should be given any preference. If a kid comes from a successful, wealthy household, why should that kid be given any preference solely because of skin color. It makes no sense!
[/quote]
It makes plenty of sense. Whether he understands it or not, he represents something to us that matters a great deal. He may not even wish to be part of it. Don’t matter. If he is black, that’s that.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If, however, you were to argue that economic diversity is needed for colleges, I could buy into that.
[/quote]
When I can drive down the street or walk in my country as a regular guy who belongs here, when people look at my skin color in the same way they look at hair color, then there will obviously be no need for considerations based on race. Until then, we need these considerations because it means America’s debt remains yet unpaid.</p>
<p>(editing caveat applies to this post - since I must run...)</p>
<p>
[quote]
The people who were enslaved and forced to work have my sympathy.</p>
<p>The people who refused to relinquish their seats on public transportation have my sympathy.</p>
<p>The people who organized marches against segregation amid threats of violence have my sympathy.</p>
<p>However, the people who believe that this nation owes them unequal treatment in a reverse fashion do not have my sympathy.
[/quote]
That is the problem. You want to act as if all these people are not integrally connected when your own experience tells you otherwise.</p>
<p>I am the guy who was enslaved. I am still wrestling with the issues created from those days.</p>
<p>"It is erroneous to assume anything in a study. You should only make conclusions on what you have analyzed. Other factors can be critical to the outcome & you can't nonchalantly shug them off as a "wash."</p>
<p>Yes. Simba, you cannot select only for certain factors & call them conclusive (or indicative of a "racial" decision, in this case), because (a) much more than race is considered by colleges -- regardless of what the focus of the investigation was, (b) no one is automatically de-selected for race -- whether scores are high or low, (c) ultimate decisions are not confined to race. All (whoops, 3 -- that was an edit) of those statements are backed up by admissions results. </p>
<p>Merely the fact that Asians are accepted in numbers greatly exceeding their population, & probably exceeding their overall percentages of applications to each particular "elite," is a sign tending to indicate the absence of prejudice/denial on the grounds of race. When blacks were raising claims & suits of job hiring discrimination, housing discrimination, country club membership, it wasn't a case of hundreds & thousands of blacks being given access, with a minority of them supposedly cleverly diverted (denied), but rather a blanket denial of access in cases where the bar for entrance was defined & limited (for example, pay the dues, meet objective standards for entrance, qualify by residency, etc.). College admissions is not a similar objectively limited process. The colleges themselves have described it as partly objective, partly subjective, and have published material about that.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And I'm glad a couple of people have also resurrected another important flaw in the study: that it did not prove that Asians "needed" high SAT scores, merely that they had them. (Also something mentioned before)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Correlation is not causation.</p>
<p>I think the only way you could prove that Asians are disadvantaged in the admissions game to conduct a study where you gave the admissions offices a large set of identical applications with one set of kids with obviously Asian names or an Asian activity (like going to Chinese school) and have another group with more typically European names.</p>
<p>I wish someone would do this.</p>
<p>These are the kinds of studies that were done to prove that banks and real estate agents were redlining certain areas or that potential renters of the "wrong" race were not being shown certain apartments.</p>
<p>The unfortunate part about personalizing a college result is that there's a tendency to lose sight of what the horizon is, from the college's vantage point. Their self-interest drives their decisions. It would be nonsensically self-destructive for them to refuse to admit "qualified" candidates. And when one reads revelations from ex-officers, you hear often about regrets over The Ones That Got Away -- students that were equally qualified, almost as qualified, with tremendous potential, morally deserving, etc. There is simply not enough space, & they hate making hair-splitting decisions.</p>
<p>The fact that huge numbers of Asians are indeed admitted is confirmation, therefore, that they are valued, and valued big-time. All a selective college is saying is, 'We will not be admitting 100% of qualified Asians, 100% of qualified Caucasians, and -- depending on the application year & the various regions represented & the incomes represented -- possibly not 100% of qualified URM's, either. Because we have not the space for all such qualified candidates & will not double, triple, quadruple our class/school size.'</p>
<p>If that means "discrimination," then all races are being discriminated against.</p>
<p>The study also doesn't control for economic factors. Despite claims that most beneficiaries of affirmative action are the children of wealthy black professionals, I would be quite surprised if the average income level of African-American applicants wasn't lower than that of whites.
Padad, I understand that there is diversity in the asian community, but it seems to be the experience of a lot of students from suburban school districts that a preponderance of high achieving Asian students tend to have a math/science focus, many with music as their main EC. If there is indeed less academic anad extracurricular diversity among Asian applicants than among the population as a whole, than it makes sense that Asians are not being admitted in proportion to their application numbers. This is particularly true when you consider that there are certain states and towns with a particularly high concentration of Asian students. Say Princeton wants to take two students from a particular suburban high school, and four apply. All are strong applicants, three are Asian students with an interest in physics with 2350 + SAT scores, while the fourth is a white or African American student with a 2250 SAT and a demonstrated talent for creative writing. It isn't racism to only take one of the Asians; had the poet been Asian, it would not have stopped him from getting in.
I think that math/science oriented students may also be less likely to write engaging essays (this is not always the case, but it makes sense that a good English student might find it easier to write an effective essay than a good math student), and they also might be less likely to get outstanding recommendations for the same reason. An English teacher may well be better at writing recommendations than a math teacher, even if both feel exactly the same way about a student. The English class also lends itself to developing close relationships that extend beyond the subject matter more than a math class does.
There is also, possibly, another cultural factor at play. This may be a stereotype, but it is possible that Asian children are raised to place a higher premium on politeness and respect that the children of American parents. While this helps them achieve up to a very high level, it may inhibit them from really allowing their personality to shine in certain settings. Some teachers like the kid who calls out in excitement during an intense discussion more than the student who may be just as bright but shows less obvious passion.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The fact that huge numbers of Asians are indeed admitted is confirmation, therefore, that they are valued, and valued big-time. All a selective college is saying is, 'We will not be admitting 100% of qualified Asians, 100% of qualified Caucasians, and -- depending on the application year & the various regions represented & the incomes represented -- possibly not 100% of qualified URM's, either. Because we have not the space for all such qualified candidates & will not double, triple, quadruple our class/school size.'</p>
<p>If that means "discrimination," then all races are being discriminated against.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>epiphany,</p>
<p>I want to make it clear that I do not think that is discrimination. Absolutely not!</p>
<p>But, I think that supporting the use of racial preferences for some and against others as a way to correct past injustices is discrimination.</p>
<p>You've said nothing which supports that, but others on this thread have. Their belief that some are entitled to special treatment at the cost of others, even other minorities, is discriminatory.</p>
<p>marite or anyone
We are asian. My son's activity (passion) involve many asian activities. For example. He is involved with asian calligraphy-many awards. asian folk threater and archery. How do you see this? Do you think his activities are too "asian" for an asian student? thank you for your comments.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That is the problem. You want to act as if all these people are not integrally connected when your own experience tells you otherwise.</p>
<p>I am the guy who was enslaved. I am still wrestling with the issues created from those days.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>First off, I contest your statement that "(you) are the guy who was enslaved." Unless you're over 141 years old, you were born free.</p>
<p>You say that you are "still wrestling" with the legacy of slavery (and hence, Blacks in America are entitled to preferences that others have no claim to).</p>
<p>If I said that I was "still wrestling" with the Chinese Exclusion Act, I would expect that others to laugh at me and tell me to "get over it." But, when you say that you are "still wrestling", you expect people to sympathize with you.</p>
<p>To me, America is not oppressing you. You are oppressing yourself by arguing that your racial group is at a permanent disadvantage and thus deserves special treatment at the cost of other groups, even other minorities such as Asians or Hispanics.</p>
<p>You say that until this nation becomes race-blind, we should still use race as a factor. How will our nation ever be race-blind, then?</p>
<p>Violence isn't solved with violence. Discrimination isn't solved with more discrimination.</p>
<p>fabrizio: I know that you are responding to Drosselmier, who uses past discrimination as a justification for affirmative action. However, not all proponents of affirmative action argue on these grounds, including the US supreme court. In my opinon, there is a benefit to having all kinds of diversity at a school, including racial diversity. While not all black students will necessarily have experiences that represent their culture, it is only by enrolling a number of black students that there will be any chance for these perspectives to be heard. This is good for all the students on the campus.
There is also the potential benefit to the black community. Whether you are a liberal and see the problems of black America as the result of racism or a conservatives who sees these problems as the result of welfare, AA, and lack of accountability, everyone acknowledges that there is a racial disparity in this country. By giving special consideration to those URMs who seem most likely to take leadership roles in all segments of society, universities are helping to close that gap.
Jmom: I don't think anyone is saying there is a problem with doing activities stereotypically percieved as Asian. The issue is that schools aren't going to want loads of kids with a similar profile, regardless of ethnicity. If your son's activities bring something unique to a school, it won't matter that they reflect his ethnicity. On the other hand, if he is one of four students in his school, asian or white, skilled at calligraphy, folk theater, and archery, the schools aren't going to take all four of them, even if they have similar qualifications in other areas.</p>
<p>J mom, your son should pursue the activities that interest him. The pursuit of traditional Asian arts is a worthwhile activity if he loves it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
For example. He is involved with asian calligraphy-many awards. asian folk threater and archery.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>First, I agree with Cheers. He should pursue his own interests and he will surely find a college that values these interests.</p>
<p>Second, while these interests are "Asian" in their character, they are not "Asian" in the sense that many Asian students pursue them. While I know a fair number of Asian students, I have never met one who was interested in either calligraphy or folk theater. As for archery, I have met an equal number of Caucasians who are interested in some kind of martial arts.This is to say that these particular activities will make your son a standout--not because he is Asian or the activities are Asian, but because they are unusual. He should make the most of them!</p>
<p>
[quote]
I know that you are responding to Drosselmier, who uses past discrimination as a justification for affirmative action. However, not all proponents of affirmative action argue on these grounds, including the US supreme court. In my opinon, there is a benefit to having all kinds of diversity at a school, including racial diversity. While not all black students will necessarily have experiences that represent their culture, it is only by enrolling a number of black students that there will be any chance for these perspectives to be heard. This is good for all the students on the campus.
There is also the potential benefit to the black community. Whether you are a liberal and see the problems of black America as the result of racism or a conservatives who sees these problems as the result of welfare, AA, and lack of accountability, everyone acknowledges that there is a racial disparity in this country. By giving special consideration to those URMs who seem most likely to take leadership roles in all segments of society, universities are helping to close that gap.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree with you that diversity is a good thing. It is great to talk with different people from different places.</p>
<p>However, I do not believe that we should use race as a factor, even if it is only one of many. I believe that it is wrong to draw any conclusions based on race, whether they are "positive" or "negative."</p>
<p>Although I'm staunchly against race-based affirmative action, I actually consider myself liberal on many positions (e.g. stem cell research, marriage, evolution in public schools, etc.). It is because of my belief in the inherent worth of every individual that I do not support using skin color as a factor.</p>
<p>I think special consideration should not given on the basis of race. There are disparities, and to solve these, I believe that we should invest more in underfunded schools using national funds as opposed to local funds.</p>
<p>You don't fight fire with fire. You spray the fire extinguisher at the SOURCE of the flames.</p>
<p>You don't rectify past discrimination with current discrimination. You address the root, which is lack of funding for education.</p>
<p>All this micro-analysis seems to have lost sight of the big questions:</p>
<p>Is racial diversity on college campuses important? Is creating a campus that is representative of America's racial make-up important? Is it important to "help" underrepresentative minorities achieve socio-economic success in America?</p>
<p>If the answers to these questions are "yes" (which I believe they are), then we need to figure out a way to admit all races in the "fairest" way possible.</p>
<ol>
<li>Yes.</li>
<li>No. This leads to quotas.</li>
<li>Yes.</li>
</ol>
<p>A way to admit all races in the fairest way possible? Remove racial preferences and invest in underfunded schools with national funds.</p>
<p>Fabrizio, I think the problem with what you're saying is that you fail to recognize that a position or principle can be ideologically correct yet practically destructive. Clearly, the optimal society would not take race into account, because all races should be treated equally and perform equally well. However, the reality in American society is that we have grave inequities that divide at least in part on racial lines. I'm not saying that we need to atone for the sins of our ancestors, or impose equal representation, but when members of a struggling subgroup achieve, it is only natural to take more of an interest in their performance and inclusion than in that of the member of the majority.
It is also a reality of this country that race is a big enough factor in a person's life that there are experiences and values shared by blacks, or hispanics, or asians for that matter that are unique to that group. Providing that type of perspective and experience on campus contributes to academic diversity in the same way that having people of different political persuasions or international student does.
I suspect that, were I an adcom, I would find certain examples of students admitted on affirmataive action (or as legacies, or athletes) that would anger me, since I would feel that they were given too much of an extra boost. However, in principle, and I hope largely in practice, a policy that adds diversity to campus and gives a disadvantaged minority a boost assuming that he or she is already qualified winds up being a good thing.</p>
<p>
You don't rectify past discrimination with current discrimination. You address the root, which is lack of funding for education.
Although I'd agree that's a root of the problem, I don't think it's the root. One problem is that members of minority groups often don't value education as a means to improving their economic situation. That's a social problem, and it requires a social solution.</p>
<p>In many ways, the rationale behind affirmative action parallels the drive to get more female students interested in science and engineering careers. Although women are still underrepresented in many fields of science, the social drive has made progress -- half of the students in my molecular biology PhD program are female. This hasn't been achieved by lowering bars, but rather by educating women as scientists so that young girls see science as a desirable and feasible career option. If you want people to do something, you have to convince them first that they want to do it.</p>
<p>Like other posters, I would remind everyone that college admissions is a process of selecting people from a large, talented pool, rather than a process of rejecting people. I feel that makes it unlikely that Asians are being systematically discriminated against -- just that ethnic groups whose talent and potential are not accurately reflected by their SAT scores are discriminated for.</p>
<p>
[quote]
First off, I contest your statement that "(you) are the guy who was enslaved." Unless you're over 141 years old, you were born free. You say that you are "still wrestling" with the legacy of slavery (and hence, Blacks in America are entitled to preferences that others have no claim to). If I said that I was "still wrestling" with the Chinese Exclusion Act, I would expect that others to laugh at me and tell me to "get over it."
[/quote]
I really wish you would consider the point I have mentioned here so frequently. You are actually comparing slavery to the Chinese Exclusion Act. The Chinese Exclusion Act never took the bodies of all your kin and of people who look like you and held them by law from themselves so that they were unable to build futures for their progeny. It never took away your folk’s names, their languages, their knowledge of their ancestry, their identities. It never took away their religion. It never took away their history. It never denied them the right to own themselves, a right all humans have by nature. It never took them from home, and it never denied them the right to their home. It never denied them a right to marry. It never denied them the right to raise families in the security that the whole thing-- wife, children, husband, and all, would not be sold away. That act simply aimed to restrict Chinese immigration to the United States, and only for ten years. The Chinese, as a group, even under this act, had no natural rights infringed. There is no comparison here. When America destroyed the identities of our ancestors, it quite obviously destroyed our own identities. What is more, it left us in a country that is hostile to our existence as human beings. Blacks are attached to the wronged people of the past. There is no division.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But, when you say that you are "still wrestling", you expect people to sympathize with you.
[/quote]
Well, I used to. But I continually see how impossible it is. People are not given to seeing the truth, especially when they do not wish to see it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
To me, America is not oppressing you. You are oppressing yourself by arguing that your racial group is at a permanent disadvantage and thus deserves special treatment at the cost of other groups, even other minorities such as Asians or Hispanics.
[/quote]
No. This is quite wrong. I see the economy of things, that merely because my wronged ancestors are dead, does not eliminate the debt owed to them. The claim exists in me whether you wish to pay it or not. I feel it in a very real way. Millions of blacks feel it, and they know the claim is legitimate. I am saying few other groups in America have this sort of claim, since they came here of their own volition as entrepreneurs. I am saying the “special treatment” against blacks has already taken place, and that a civilized person would work to reverse its effects. I am saying the claim we have against America is not going to go away and that a civilized approach would be to focus attention on those blacks who are able to develop despite the claim, over time enabling them to forgive the debt. I am saying things of this nature would be preferable to simply failing to repay America’s debt. It would be the honorable thing to do, and it would be the least painful way of payment, especially since nearly all other groups are doing well by comparison.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You say that until this nation becomes race-blind, we should still use race as a factor. How will our nation ever be race-blind, then?
[/quote]
Policies are quite often deemed obsolete and eventually removed from the books. The burden of a race-blind society ought not rest primarily upon the backs of those who tend to take the hardest hits when it comes to race consciousness in society. It ought to rest on those who take the fewest hits.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Violence isn't solved with violence. Discrimination isn't solved with more discrimination.
[/quote]
It sounds trite, but it is patently false, and we all know it is false. Violence is usually solved with violence. To see this one only needs see what typically happens when one man attacks another. To defend himself, the victim will almost always strike back to debilitate the attacker. The same applies to discrimination. When someone takes from someone else, we don’t indiscriminately demand repayment from anyone. We discriminate and demand repayment from the thief. In this case the thief is the United States, since the lives of blacks were stolen for the benefit of America with the support of American law. The United States now owes blacks their lives back. It can do this and over time gain many well-educated American citizens who feel American. Or, it can let nature take its course.</p>
<p>
[quote]
A way to admit all races in the fairest way possible? Remove racial preferences and invest in underfunded schools with national funds.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Define underfunded. I've heard much squawking about Robin Hood systems that take money from rich districts and distribute them to poorer ones. I also think that it may take more, not the same amount of money to bring disadvantaged kids up to speed and make up for all the thing that your average middle class parent gives their kids without thinking twice about it.</p>