<p>Different sort of kid. Concert pianist (scholarship to the Mannes International Keyboard Institute, and recital in Philadelphia), and competitive gymnast, and future international Arabic-speaking accountant. Wouldn't dream of going to any of these snooty places - a school without a gymnastics team, an Arabic program, and an international accounting major is decidedly inferior in her book, and, for her, I absolutely agree.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm assuming that you don't care because your son was still admitted to a highly prestigious Ivy.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Jian Li was admitted to Yale. Last I heard, it was "a highly prestigious Ivy." It did not prevent him from "caring" as in complaining.</p>
<p>"his being Asian wasn't the flaw that got him his waitlist."</p>
<p>Operative word here = "waitlist." It is widely understood in college admissions that a waitlist is not equivalent to a rejection, but rather is a statement that a candidate is qualified to attend, but that there is not a compelling reason to admit at this time -- DUE TO OTHER CANDIDATES FILLING THE NEEDS OF THE INSTITUTION SLIGHTLY BETTER. Thus, the latter candidates are being given Right of First Refusal. Now, we know that upper-level colleges over-accept & may even be over-enrolled, but theoretically, on principle, Jian's application determination would mean that, should enough Accepteds decline the offer, he might very well be an admit, should he still be interested at that time.</p>
<p>What we can conclude, then, is that Princeton did not view him as their first priority, but as their second. Most often when this happens (as revealed in the past by admissions officers), it is because a certain balance of a class has already been achieved, and the waitlisted candidates are somewhat duplicative of the freshman content.</p>
<p>Different scenario, but not unlike it, just that reasoning & goals are different.
Tufts Syndrome/Swarthmore Syndrome. As to the latter, it is widely understood also that Swat routinely waitlists the Ivy-qualified candidates. In their case, they do it because they have yield concerns, as they believe they are often used as a "safety" or a "secondary" by highly qualified students. Further proof: Ivy-admitted daughter got a waitlist postcard from Swat, the only LAC on her list. Alarmed by a phrase on that card ("We already know you have options for admission to highly selective colleges," or some such phrase), I called them. ("How would they 'know' that?" I asked) Because, they said, confidently, "we only waitlist supremely qualified candidates."</p>
<p>On the subject someone else posted, regarding "sins of the ancestors." I don't know about that phrase, but I do know that it is a prevalent theme in U.S. institutions of all kinds that we accept a "melting pot" or "multicultural" goal. This is not necessarily greater than an academic goal, but may be equal to it. That is what I think some of the posters with a different mindset or expectations about American education, do not understand. It is one of the features that makes the U.S. unique, & not a carbon copy of Europe or Asia.</p>
<p>so wouldn't you say that nurturing family, ambition and hard work had something do rather than race or income?</p>
<p>Kluge,
You have a good point. However, do you think that the benefits are outweighing the damage? A study conducted showed that employers are less likely to hire URM graduates from top schools than their non-URM counterparts, because they feel that they may have gotten due to AA. That damages the chances of URMs who would have gotten in anyways imo. Another study showed that URMs who get in with AA are more likely to drop out.</p>
<p>mini,
The same argument could be applied to Asians. The fact is there aren't that many more wealthy millionaire Asians than wealth millionaire URMs. There's a glass ceiling in the corporate world for Asians as well.</p>
<p>WindCloudUltra,
I could well have missed the point. What I got from the post was that the admissions process is unpredictable and that there are many factors that go into it. However, if one of those factors could tip you out unfairly, would you be satisfied if you got waitlisted and didn't get in anywhere else because of that? Would you not ask yourself, "What would have happened my skin color had been different?"</p>
<p>I did not mean for it to be inflammatory. Sew, I apologize if you take offense to my previous post, but I'm genuinely curious. </p>
<p>There's nothing wrong with state schools, but many feel that the environment is much more conducive to learning at top schools.</p>
<p>marite,
Jian stated that he was happy with Yale. He is fighting against the injustice. He has nothing to gain from this and everything to lose. I commend him for his efforts.</p>
<p>Under the long stated goal of full disclosure the obvious (and easy to answer) question is:</p>
<p>"What percent of URMs with perfect SAT's (or even over 2250 SAT scores) were denied admission"?</p>
<p>I apologize for jumping in late here, but wanted to share a recent experience. DD is Princeton freshman. She is the ONLY caucasian American female in her suite of 6. She brought 3 suite mates home for Thanksgiving - they either lived too far from home or had never experienced this bit of American culture. Never have I seen 4 kids with more in common. They laughed, tried everything that was offered, slept a great deal and studied for hours on end. When one was writing a philosophy paper and asked for an opinion, they all chimed in with very different ideas. I loved just listening to the debate. When I made the remark after they left that they had spent at least 20 hours of their brief time here studying, my 14 year old said, "but what was really weird is that they seemed to like it". There is an intrinsic factor that they all had in common - yet they are from totally different backgrounds. None were pretentious (no one mentioned their SAT score or what their grades were in their current classes). I don't know how Dean Rapelye and her staff quantify this in each applicant, but I can only say from my experience that the diversity at Princeton is amazing, but the students I have met are really not that different in what is important to a university - passion for learning, openmindedness, and a VERY strong work ethic. These qualities cross all racial, ethnic, and socioeconomic boundaries.</p>
<p>"so wouldn't you say that nurturing family, ambition and hard work had something do rather than race or income?"</p>
<p>With her SAT score? Certainly wasn't ambition or hard work. She never had nor did either. Income was most definitely a factor (we eat well, and always have, and have never gone without. Was never unemployed during their growing up. After age four, never moved, nor had to.) Nurturing family? Sure. Race (in the sense of genetics, for a small self-selected Mongol-Semitic subgroup known as Jews) probably had quite a bit to do with it.</p>
<p>And I'm quite positive that "merit" had nothing to do with it.</p>
<p>^ I bet one common theme they all had was 'intellectual parity'.</p>
<p>"There's nothing wrong with state schools, but many feel that the environment is much more conducive to learning at top schools."</p>
<p>He's not going to a state school! He's going to Yale, for heaven's sake!</p>
<p>"marite,
Jian stated that he was happy with Yale. He is fighting against the injustice."</p>
<p>It's "injustice" to go to Yale? Gee, plenty of Yale rejects would be glad to relieve Jian of his position of "injustice," -- both Asian rejects & non-Asian rejects, btw. (In case you believe that only qualified ASIANS get rejected from HYP. Guffaw, guffaw.)</p>
<p>Some people have no perspective. Folks, what happened to African-Americans for a few centuries, that's injustice. What happened to Japanese Americans during WW II in this country, that's injustice. The way many countries have or are currently treating minorities in their own countries, that's injustice. Can anyone spell D-a-r-f-u-r? That's injustice. </p>
<p>Please, a little perspective here.</p>
<p>I remember a line from "Lost in Translation," when one of the characters says to Scarlett Johansson's character, "Well, we can't all go to Yale."</p>
<p>
[quote]
aren't that many more wealthy millionaire Asians than URMs
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Statisticians?</p>
<p>Not sure about millionaires, but the majority of billionaires are concentrated in the US and Europe. And it is true that there are very few Asian billionaires on the Forbes 400 riches American list...most of the billions having been made in entreprenuership and investments. <a href="http://www.forbes.com/2006/03/08/hometowns-networths-worlds-richest_06billionaires_map.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.forbes.com/2006/03/08/hometowns-networths-worlds-richest_06billionaires_map.html</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
Another study showed that URMs who get in with AA are more likely to drop out.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Since these heated debates only take place when talking about a handful of schools (as this conversation would never take place out side of this handful)</p>
<p>For many years Harvard University, traditionally one of the nation's strongest supporters of affirmative action, has produced the highest black student graduation rate of any college or university in the nation. But for some unexplained and possibly immaterial reason, Harvard slipped to second place in 2004. *But now Harvard's black student graduation rate has increased to 95 percent, once again the highest among U.S. colleges and universities. *</p>
<p>*Amherst College, a small liberal arts college in western Massachusetts, now has a black student graduation rate of 94 percent, **the second highest in the nation. Last year Amherst had bested Harvard by two percentage points. **Princeton University ranks third in the nation with a black student graduation rate of 93 percent. Six other highly ranked colleges and universities in the United States posted a black student graduation rate of 90 percent or above. They are Wellesley College, Brown University, Northwestern University, Washington University, Wesleyan University, and Williams College. *</p>
<p>*Eleven other high-ranking institutions have a black student graduation above 85 percent. They are Stanford University, Yale University, Dartmouth College, Davidson College, Columbia University, Duke University, Georgetown University, Smith College, Swarthmore College, the University of Virginia, and Wake Forest University.
*</p>
<p>Academically selective institutions are almost always strongly committed to affirmative action in admissions, yet at the same time they tend to deliver a high black student graduation rate. Obviously, this undercuts the assertion made by many conservatives that black students admitted to our most prestigious colleges and universities under race-conscious admissions programs are incapable of competing with their white peers and should instead seek admissions at less academically rigorous schools.** The fact that almost all entering black students at Harvard, Amherst, Princeton, and several other highly ranked colleges and universities go on to earn their diplomas shows that African Americans do compete successfully at our nation's most prestigious institutions of higher learning.**</p>
<p>Five of the nation's highest-ranked colleges and universities actually have a higher graduation rate for black students than for white students. According to the latest statistics from Mount Holyoke College, Pomona College, Smith College, Wellesley College, and Macalester College, a black student on these campuses is more likely to complete the four-year course of study and receive a diploma than is a white student. JBHE has not been able to identify the reason for this anomaly at these five institutions, which is markedly inconsistent with nationwide statistics. But it is interesting to note that three of the five institutions are women's colleges.</p>
<p>Why are black graduation rates very strong at some high-ranking institutions and considerably weaker at other top-ranked schools? Here are a few possible explanations: </p>
<p>• Clearly, the racial climate at some colleges and universities is more favorable toward African Americans than at other campuses.** A nurturing environment for black students is almost certain to have a positive impact on black student retention and graduation rates. *Brown University, for example, although often troubled by racial incidents, is famous for its efforts to make its campus a happy place for African Americans. In contrast, the University of California at Berkeley has had its share of racial turmoil in recent years. **The small number of black students on campus as a result of the abolishment of race-sensitive admissions has made many African Americans on campus feel unwelcome. This probably contributes to the low black student graduation rate at Berkeley. *</p>
<p>• **Many of the colleges and universities with high black student graduation rates have set in place orientation and retention programs to help black students adapt to the culture of predominantly white campuses. Mentoring programs for black first-year students involving upperclassmen have been successful at many colleges and universities. **her institutions appear to improve graduation rates through strong black student organizations that foster a sense of belonging among the African-American student population. </p>
<p>• Geographic location unquestionably plays a major role in black student graduation rates. For example, Bates College in Maine is located in a rural area with a very small to negligible black population. The same holds true for Grinnell College in Iowa, Oberlin College in Ohio, and Carleton College in Minnesota. Black student graduation rates at many of these rural schools are lower than at colleges and universities in urban areas. </p>
<p>• The presence of a strong and relatively large core of black students on campus is important. Among the highest-ranked colleges and universities, institutions that tend to have a low percentage of blacks in their student bodies, such as CalTech, Bates, Middlebury, Grinnell, Davidson, Carleton, and Colby, also tend to have lower black student graduation rates. Black students who attend these schools may have problems adjusting to college life in an overwhelmingly white environment. And these schools are less likely to have black-oriented social or cultural events to make black students feel at home. </p>
<p>• Curriculum differences also play an important role in graduation rates. Carnegie Mellon University and CalTech are heavily oriented toward the sciences, fields in which blacks have always had a small presence. It continues to be true that at many high-powered schools black students in the sciences often have been made to feel uncomfortable by white faculty and administrators who persist in beliefs that blacks do not have the intellectual capacity to succeed in these disciplines. </p>
<p>• ** High dropout rates appear to be primarily caused by inferior K-12 preparation and an absence of a family college tradition, conditions that apply to a very large percentage of today's college-bound African Americans. But equally important considerations are family wealth and the availability of financial aid. According to a study by Nellie Mae, the largest nonprofit provider of federal and private education loan funds in this country, 69 percent of African Americans who enrolled in college but did not finish said that they left college because of high student loan debt as opposed to 43 percent of white students who cited the same reason**</p>
<p>Under any circumstance, a college education costs huge amounts of money. Not only are there very large outlays for tuition, books, and travel, but, even more important, going to college takes a student out of the work force for four or more years. The total bite into family income and wealth can amount to $160,000 or more per student. High and always increasing college costs tend to produce much greater hardships for black families. </p>
<p>**Deep financial pockets enable some schools to provide greater financial aid than others. And this is a major factor in student graduation rates. **Well-funded universities such as Princeton, which has the nation's largest endowment per student and probably the nation's most generous financial aid program for low-income students, will undoubtedly claim an advantage in black student retention and, subsequently, in producing high graduation rates. Clearly, the availability of a high level of financial aid shields low-income black students from financial pressures that may force minority students to leave college to fulfill family obligations and financial responsibilities.</p>
<p>epiphany,
Are you serious and just minterpreting or are you completely misconstruing everything I said on purpose? WindCloudUltra asked me what was wrong with state schools regarding my reply to Sew.</p>
<p>I said in the SAME quote that he said that he was happy at Yale. The injustice refers to what Asians in general face in the admissions process. I'm not sure if you've gotten the message yet, Jian isn't complaining about how HE personally didn't get in. He's complaining about how Asian Americans in general are held to a different bar in the admissions process.</p>
<p>Cheers,
That's right, the majority of billionaires are white. Neither Asian nor URM. Although the fact that they're concentrated in the US and Europe doesn't say much either, billionaires can basically live on any continent they want, with the exception of perhaps Antarctica.</p>
<p>There are far greater injustices than "Wah, this college did not accept me, I was wronged." Every year, thousands upon thousands of applicants are denied from their "first-choice" schools - even (gasp!) those who are not Asian. They can either sob the rest of their lives, or just move on, because, you know, worse things can happen than going to Yale. It may be true that we as Asians are held up to different standards...but it's not like, if you go to this college, you'll be less successful. Basically, if you're in college at all and you care enough about your studies, nothing any admissions office anywhere can do is going to limit your potential.</p>
<p>I am misconstruing nothing -- not accidentally, not deliberately. But I think you, saro, have clearly not understood my meaning, which is precisely that Jian has not only no particular case, but no generalized case, either. </p>
<p>And while others seem to be focusing on the embarrassment of his choosing to "fight" a "battle" when he got into Yale and actually was NOT "rejected" by Princeton, I choose to focus on what is perhaps indeed a lack of qualification, or an under-qualification, in his failure to have a perspective on both American and World History. The "case" or "complaint" he poses does not qualify as either "discrimination" or "injustice" in the historical civil rights context. (If it did, it would pale in comparison to the grave injustices I cited as contrasts.) </p>
<p>He was not denied an equal opportunity. He was granted an equal opportunity --- both in the case of Yale AND in the case of Princeton. Further, although neither our Constitution nor its amendments provide for this, he was additionally graced with equality of RESULT. I have no sympathy for this person, nor what he claims to "represent" in this particular instance.</p>
<p>In fact, I will argue that prior to his admission to college, he was given superior opportunity, as his high school & immediate environment no doubt far advantages him over many others, of all races, btw.</p>
<p>"Race sensitive admissions"?</p>
<p>it's called RACIAL DISCRIMINATION</p>
<p>Holding Asians to higher standards based SIMPLY upon their race is fine with many, particularly on the LEFT</p>
<p>Nice to see that has been made clear</p>
<p>Want to solve the problem?</p>
<p>just remove the following question "what is your ethnicity/race ?" from the school application. </p>
<p>That way these students are judged fair and square. When a whole race has to have 220 points higher SAT score than another race, it is obviously a discrimination. Don't give me the "holistic" argument crap. If it's truly holistic approach then we would find 220 points difference in SAT for a certain race highly improbable.</p>
<p>epiphany - The point you're trying to make, that a form of racial discrimination in the USA is insignificant and unworthy of attention because other things like extreme poverty and genocide threaten other parts of the world, is ridiculous. Using your argument of "failure to have a perspective on both American and World History," we could dismiss just about any issue anywhere as unimportant, providing that there are innocents suffering somewhere else in the universe.</p>
<p>Whether or not Li was denied an equal opportunity based on race is pretty clear. If his race was a factor in determining his admission, then he wasn't. It's very simple. I agree with Li, saro, and pearlygate. Race should not be a factor in college admissions. The policy of "race sensitive admissions" perpetuates racist attitudes and wrongly puts specific ethnic groups at a disadvantage.</p>
<p>Quote "When a whole race has to have 220 points higher SAT score than another race, it is obviously a discrimination"</p>
<p>More likely there is something seriously wrong with the system when races with statistically equal intelligence can average a 220 point difference on a test heavily used in the admission process.</p>