Princeton or Harvard?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
61

<p>It appears that this has become the “Nat and Ske Harvard thread”. I personally hate these kinds of conversations because they end up generating so much heat and so little light, particularly when they occur between partisan advocates of well-known schools. I’m not going to weigh in on relative merits. They’re both fine schools and they both attract fine students. They’re also not the only great schools in the country. Like Razorazor and, I believe, Fermat, I was lucky enough to be able to choose between them and chose Princeton (I chose Harvard for law school) but there are plenty of good reasons to make the opposite choice or to attend neither! </p>

<p>That having been said, there has been some outdated and misleading information passed along here by our Harvard friends and it should be corrected.</p>

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<p>The link Nat posted on National Merit Scholars is from the fall of 2003, six years ago. It was also a year that Harvard did well above its average with 378 National Merit Scholars and Princeton did below its average. For the last few years, Harvard has averaged 288 National Merit Scholars per year. Princeton has averaged 169 per year and Yale has averaged 194. When adjusted for the average size of their freshman classes, the comparison looks like this: </p>

<p>National Merit Scholars as a Percentage of Freshman Classes Over the Last Three Years: </p>

<p>17.4% = Harvard
14.8% = Yale
13.8% = Princeton </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf&lt;/a&gt; = 2008 Freshman NMS
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/5247817-post1.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/5247817-post1.html&lt;/a&gt; = 2007 Freshman NMS
[2006</a> Freshman Merit Scholars - Student Affairs - The Chronicle of Higher Education](<a href=“http://chronicle.com/article/2006-Freshman-Merit-Scholars/29884]2006”>http://chronicle.com/article/2006-Freshman-Merit-Scholars/29884) = 2006 Freshman NMS</p>

<p>(Sorry that the last supporting link shown above requires a pass for viewing and I can’t seem to find a public link for the 2007 data. With a pass to the Chronicle you can find all of these.)</p>

<p>In 2007 Princeton’s freshman class had a higher percentage of NMS Scholars than Yale’s. In 2008 the situation was reversed as Yale had a good year. Over the last three years there’s about a one percent difference between Princeton and Yale and a 2.5 to 3.5% difference between those two and Harvard. We’ll give the edge to Harvard but it’s a small edge. We’ll also give Harvard its due in performance on the Putnam exam, though, as Razorazor has pointed out, there are other measures of excellence favoring Princeton’s math department.</p>

<p>One thing I will say, is that some of the language being used here by Harvard partisans is simply going to reinforce stereotypes about their alma mater. Case in point:</p>

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<p>Though I hope I’m wrong, given the general tenor of this poster’s remarks, I don’t think this was intended to be a joke!</p>

62

<p>You can’t prove that one school is better than the other.</p>

<p>This is an extreme example I know:</p>

<p>There are two different running schools. Throughout hundreds of years, they build up their reputations and blah, blah, blah. Perhaps in the beginning, school 1 is truly better than school 2(meaning they really are better at training their students), perhaps it’s not. Eventually however, it becomes clear that the two schools are just as good as each other. </p>

<p>The thing is, school 1 has historically won the big race at the end of the year, even though, at the moment, both schools have excellent training programs that are equal to eachother in quality. </p>

<p>Now, you are an excellent runner. You have been admitted to both schools. You may also recognize that both schools have equal training programs. But which will you choose? The one that has historically won the competition or the one that is great, but takes second place. How many of these excellent runners even bother applying to the one that takes second place?</p>

<p>The cycle continues. School one puts out excellent runners because it attract excellent runners. This is not a difficult concept to grasp.</p>

<p>Alright, guys. Trying to show that one school is better than the other (at least between Princeton and Harvard) isn’t really that important, because although you can argue it, you can’t really prove it. And you can’t say that Harvard is better because it wins the Putnam competition. I think my (extreme) example above proves this.</p>

<p>First of all, many students who have a choice between Harvard and Princeton choose Harvard (Harvard is running school 1). Why? Because, even though both schools have recognizable names and excellent classes, I think most people would agree that Harvard is more famous worldwide. Now just because a school is more famous, does that mean it’s “better”?</p>

<p>No. If you asked around, a lot of (NOT ALL, but a lot of, and perhaps even most) people would tell you that Yale is a better school than Princeton or MIT. But according to the Putnam score thing, both Princeton and MIT are better than Yale. According to most (if not all) college rankings, Princeton is a better school than Yale. I’m pretty sure, though, that Yale has a more recognizable name.</p>

<p>So, Harvard has a more recognizable name to most people (but as proven above, that doesn’t mean it’s better) and partly due to the fact that it’s name is more recognizable, it definitely attracts math geniuses. Math geniuses are not MADE once they enter Harvard. They are already math geniuses before they get there. So is it surprising that Harvard does well at the Putnam competition year after year? No. </p>

<p>Just because Harvard does a bit better at a Math competition does not mean that it is a better school. This is, first of all, because the people who are winning the math competitions are not winning them BECAUSE they go to Harvard. They are winning them FOR THE SAME REASON that they were admitted to Harvard. They are good at math, and have worked at it for years, and years. </p>

<p>Once again, is Harvard better at math? No. Harvard’s MATH STUDENTS are better at math. </p>

<p>Is this BECAUSE they go to Harvard. No. Rather, this is the CRITERIA by which they were accepted. This creates a cycle. The better math students go to Harvard (b/c of the bigger name, perhaps). Harvard wins the Putnam. The better math students of the next year are then attracted to Harvard. Harvard wins again. etc.</p>

<p>My point in all this, is that which school is “better” should determined by how good the classes are, and you can’t directly measure how good the classes at a school are by how good the students are at a subject. Runners at school 1 are faster than those at school 2. Is this because school two has a better training program? No. the programs are equal in quality. They place higher at races because THE STUDENTS ARE BETTER, NOT THE SCHOOL.</p>

<p>Furthermore, even if Harvard’s math department is better, that doesn’t make it a better school. What about the Woodrow Wilson School of Politics? Or the modern language department? I don’t know if there are any politics competitions, or Chinese competitions that are as famous as the Putnam, so these strengths have not been accounted for in the argument on this thread.</p>

<p>You can’t prove that one is better than the other, especially not by using only the results of a math competition.</p>

<p>I know this is all very redundant, but look at the hidden facts, not just the obvious ones.</p>

<p>Has anyone read Outliers? :p</p>

63

<p>I wasn’t going to post this but something has really been bothering me since yesterday.</p>

<p>Princeton92, after you post a very long remark and three people have read it and commented on it would you please not go back and EXTENSIVELY EDIT YOUR WHOLE POST? Making small corrections is one thing but that is not what you did. You deleted the whole thing and posted something different, you know it and I know it.</p>

<p>This type of editing would only be fair if all parties involved are afforded an equal opportunity to edit their remarks. WE WERE NOT. Whatever point you wanted to make should have been made in a new post that referenced the old one.</p>

<p>This thread should read like a conversation that took place but it does not because you EDITED YOUR PORTION, quite extensively. If you ever try to pull something like this at Princeton or Harvard and you get caught you’ll get your butt nailed to the wall.</p>

64

<p>I’ve read Outliers: good book.
@Pea: the image of one’s butt nailed to the wall cracked me up. Excellent point, I don’t think enough people know this.</p>

65

<p>These Harvard kids who win Putnam could have won if they went to Florida State.</p>

<p>Also, Yale vs. MIT? really depends on what you want to study, but most people would not say Yale is a better school.</p>

<p>Also, Princeton faculty have more people in NAS but obviously Harvard math faculty are absolute superstars across the board- Gross, Mazur, Elkies, Taubes, Tate, Mumford, Yau, McMullen, Harris, Kahzdan- and those are just people I can name off the top of my head- there are probably a few glaring omissions…</p>

<p>NMS- skewed by the fact that many schools like Cornell, Columbia and UPenn don’t award scholarships to NMS finalists. I thought the major hurdle to being selected for NMS is getting above a certain score determined by state on the PSAT. But I’m from the UK so I have no idea.</p>

66

<p>“These Harvard kids who win Putnam could have won if they went to Florida State.”</p>

<p>That’s exactly my point. They are good at math before that get to Harvard. Not because they go to Harvard.</p>

67

<p>Pea, yes I DID go back and edit my post. And I’m not trying to act like I didn’t. </p>

<p>I wrote in that post, “Okay I just posted my credentials here for Pea, but I clicked on “edit” and deleted it all”. How does this look like I’m hiding something?</p>

<p>I did that after you commented because I realized how specific I had been, and I didn’t want to give away that much personal information. It was not my intention to make you look like a criminal, and I’m really sorry if that’s what it looks like.</p>

<p>Most of my other posts are edited because I make careless, embarrassing mistakes, and don’t notice them until after I post them.</p>

<p>There’s only a small window of time where you can edit posts, so it’s not like I’m going back every five minutes and changing everything. </p>

<p>Again, sorry if I made you look like the bad guy, but I really wasn’t trying to. I admit that I edited my post because it contained a bunch of personal info that I didn’t want on the internet. </p>

<p>The point of this thread really was to get more information about two schools. It wasn’t to say that one is better than another, or to be told by a bunch of strangers that I think that I am “father king of choice”, or to show off. Frankly, what would I gain from any of that? I DON’T KNOW YOU. </p>

<p>P.S. I will start proofreading so that I don’t have to go back and edit all my posts. That way it won’t look like I’m changing the whole conversation. And I won’t get my but nailed to a wall :wink: .</p>

68

<p>You havent even been accepted into either, who do you think you are?
Its like a homeless person wondering whether they should by a new BMW or Lexus?
And why do you edit all of your posts? This is all so confusing.</p>

69

<p>I know I haven’t been accepted to either. I’m not saying “which school should I go to?” I’m just trying to do research. Pleeeeaaase guys. I should never have started this thread!</p>

<p>It’s like a homeless guy looking at a Lexus and saying “wow that’s a nice car. I hope I can turn my life around and someday own one…” Can we look at it that way?</p>

70

<p>And why do you edit all of your posts?</p>

71

<p>^ read post #67. I swore to start proofreading.</p>

72

<p>lol @ “father king of choice”</p>

73

<p>That wasn’t my phrase. Someone else posted it earlier. </p>

<p>Pea, now before I post something, I copy and paste it into Word so that I can catch mistakes. I’m not trying to be sarcastic/anger anyone further. I’m actually proofreading because I don’t want anybody to get mad.</p>

74

<p>I still don’t understand why all of you continue to use the Putnam as THE measure of success. OK, the Putnam is a great competition. But it is still nothing compared to a Fields Medal, Wolf Prize, Abel Prize, which are THE TOP mathematics honors for the BEST of the BEST in the WORLD…And Princeton literally obliterates all other competition in garnering these Nobel Prizes of math. The only one that even comes close is probably Cambridge University in England. If you put the Princeton mathematics department head to head against the Harvard math department Harvard wouldn’t even stand a chance. I was in the Putnam top 200 in the country and I don’t stand a chance against any of the heavyweight math geniuses at Princeton who have won the Fields medals.</p>

<p>@cmburns14: Yes, you can name those off the top of your head. And I can name Andrew Wiles, John Conway, John Milnor, John Nash, Andrei Okounov, Terence Tao, Elias Stein, Manjul Bhargava, Edward Witten, Michael Freedman and the list goes on… I still don’t see what your point is.</p>

<p>@ske: Princeton > Harvard hands down in mathematics. The REAL subject that tests your ingenuity. And that’s why I chose it, to work with the best.</p>

75

<p>And just to put things into perspective, the Putnam only tests up to Multivariable calculus and Linear Algebra, which are interesting subjects but only touching the tip of the iceberg in the realm of mathematics…</p>

<p>The Fields medal is given to a lifetime achievement in mathematics to those under the age of 40. This includes EVERYTHING including topology, differential geometry, number theory, advanced combinatorics…mathematics notation you have never even heard of. Now that’s what I’m talking about baby. Haha.</p>

76

<p>Andrew Wiles, John Conway, and John Nash are all mathematical geniuses.</p>

77

<p>I like you Fermat. You’re nice. And you make valid points.</p>

78

<p>Alright, thank you for that entertaining argument hidden with random outburst of actual information. Can we all retire the childishly pugnacious remarks and actually focus on the questions/matters at hand? This is a simple blog-like website, not Princeton92’s future college essay and minor typos,misspellings and general proofreading errors are acceptable. Wouldn’t you agree?</p>

<p>Both Princeton and Harvard are remarkable schools and it would/should be an honor for anyone to attend them. Honestly, it does not matter which of the two is the “best”. I’m sure the “best” education from both of these schools and any school for that matter, comes from the student and what they seek to gain/accomplish. So what’s the harm in inquiring a little more information about both? If students are confident in themselves that they may have a chance at acceptance, then so be it; let us dream. </p>

<p>Anyways, I have a question or two/few. (lol I am also interested in both these schools.) </p>

<p>What’s the quality/character of Princeton’s student body? What would an admissions officer look at and say “Oh, that’s so Princeton!”</p>

79

<p>You can probably get that answer from more specific Princeton threads in the forum, this one is a little more focused on Harvard v. Princeton. Try a CC search.</p>

80

<p>Haha, yeah… I can see. It seems like every time I attempt to get those same questions answered, the hype of the thread dies. But I’ll keep searching.</p>