Put another way, the average black student scores lower than 80% of all white students, and probably lower than 90% of all Asian students. So, according to you, should merit just be ignored altogether?
I don’t think anymore needs to be said about this one.
So basically, successful heterosexual white men and women are responsible for everything wrong in the world, correct?
So no free speech for anyone that disagrees, eh?
Let’s ignore for the fact that the low SAT scores for Black students means that the pipeline for talented black students that complete a PhD is small. What exactly constitutes a “tradition of racist hiring”?
So the percentage of Black faculty must match that of the students, but we won’t count any Professors in Africology, because, well, just because they said so.
My impression is that demand is derived from the idea that reparations to AAs are justified because the US and its economic foundation benefited greatly from the coerced free labor of the enslaved Black population and decades of dejure and defacto discriminatory policies/practices from before the founding of the US up until at least the late '60s and some would argue…to the present*.
Incidentally, this issue isn’t limited to the US as the following shows:
What’s also interesting about this event is that one factor which influenced Woodrow Wilson’s administration to order the US Marines into Haiti in 1915 was to ensure that very morally sketchy and dubious debt to France continued to be paid. A debt which Haiti was forced by France*** with some US military assistance to make until the mid-20th century.
I.e. Racial profiling by law enforcement and if in White majority areas,,,White neighbors**, redlining/dubious loan practices by banks towards minority borrowers even if their credit history/scores were same/better than comparable White applicants, etc.
** This was the experience of an older AA college classmate who had this happen while growing up in an well-off AA family in a near-all White upper/upper-middle class suburb.
*** Mainly because France wanted compensation for financial losses incurred from the loss of its colony,including the loss of slaves and their “free labor”.
@whatisyourquest What are the attractive options? Did they not have racial protests over the last couple of weeks? Were those protests more polite and not involve “demands”? Did the administration ignore the protesters or shut them down?
What are the criteria here for being “more attractive” and what schools are meeting it, in your view?
I do not care about woodrow wilson and 99% of the people in america do not have a clue who he was.
(including those princeton protesters until a week ago)
his name has been on the school for many many decades…in 2015 it became an issue? they are just scanning for new issues to be aggrieved over. I do not know or care what he did really good or bad he is a part of the schools history.
you can vet ever person with a name attached to a school from history and give you information that shows them not to be a saint or angel. (no religious meaning intended).
for the school to even entertain this silly game is foolish and will set princeton up for a more ridiculous clash down the road. what it will be is beyond my guess!
@jiffsmom: The expectation that sociohistorical connotations do not pervade, and are not daily present, in how we experience and navigate the world today is an expectation that calls for a sterile interaction with everything in which we come into contact.
When we insist that the vestiges of an uglier time are not threaded into the language or actions of our systems we fail to gauge the needs and realities of all the people in the room. Where the language is that which was used to suggest and magnify essential value differences is the same as that which is the standard terminology within a branch of study, do you not see where the student can be harmed by that?
Changes, adjustments, and augmentations to language have come into play in discussion, exhibition and celebration of the arts.
At my alma mater, there is a Ford Center for engineering students. It’s fascinating, isn’t it, that Jewish students haven’t protested that the Ford name be taken off because Henry Ford was anti-Semitic? Why do you suppose they don’t need to whine over that? They’re minority too, right?
@OHMomof2 Attractive options are ones in which the student body respects authority figures and doesn’t scream “shut up” and “f*** you” at a house master. Attractive options are ones in which the student body is willing to hold respectful debates, in which all participants will politely listen to all positions (even to ones they vehemently oppose) and try to understand why those positions are held. Attractive options are ones in which protesters seek common ground with the university administration on contentious issues and will accept compromise, rather than issue demands.
Some of the universities that we’ve visited during campus tours seem to not be infected yet with such hostility towards their school’s administration. Of course, the SJW trend is a juggernaut (as I mentioned earlier) and will probably trash the reputation of many more universities. My hope is that university administrators are paying keen attention, are developing proactive action plans, and have resolved that “this will not happen here.”
I guess the attractive options are ones in which the university administration insists on rationality, respect, and courtesy, and is prepared to expel students that violate these reasonable expectations. Attending a university is a privilege, not a right.
Some of that is due to the fact that up until the late '90s, Princeton’s campus culture and admission policies heavily favored those who were athletes, legacies/developmental admits, and graduates of boarding/prep schools who were more likely to be upper/upper-middle class and White*. It was also known as having one of the most…if not the most politically conservative and least racially diverse student bodies among the Ivy league back then.
A major factor in why some older URM HS classmates felt it necessary to warn younger classmates about the conservative White upper/upper-middle class dominated student culture and how it influenced dismissive attitudes towards minorities/URMs, lower SES students, and public school graduates like themselves back when I was a HS student in the early-mid '90s.
This impression wasn’t helped by the widely known bias unfavorable to public schools…including public magnets Princeton admissions had during that period. A factor in why many alums from public magnets and NYC area public schools from my graduating class and older tend to regard Princeton back then as one having a strong preference for conservative upper/upper-middle class athletes or developmental/legacy types from multigenerational wealthy families.
Quite a contrast to H and Y which happily accepted a much larger proportion of our respective graduating classes in the same period.
Outreach efforts by such boarding schools towards URM students were only getting started around the early '90s.
I think the point about the Jewish population and their response to oppression is a very good one. I have been thinking about this since these campus protests heated up. I am not Jewish so I was hesitant to raise it.
Does no one else see the irony in these protestors lecturing Salovey and Eisgruber (although he claimed his Jewish heritage later in life) about oppression and presenting demands dictating how they believe it should be rectified? Does it not occur to them that these men might have some knowledge of what was clearly global oppression and how to successfully overcome it?
Seems to me the protestors might be wise to take the time to ask some questions, and perhaps reflect on a different approach that historically has proven to be quite successful.
However, that omits the fact that Jewish-Americans experienced oppression differently from African-Americans in US history and in some cases, participated in the very oppression of AAs by enslaving, defending slavery, and being active/passive participants in the de jure and defacto discriminatory policies and practices in US society:
Judah P. Benjamin was not only a slave owner and a staunch defender of slavery, but also appointed to various cabinet posts in Confederate President Jefferson Davis’ administration:
Fair enough, though I was hoping for some specific examples of such schools, if there are any (other than Liberty, Hillsdale, Bob Jones and the like).
What about schools where students initially issue demands but then accept compromise? That seems to be the pattern with several we’ve discussed over the past couple of weeks.
@hebegebe I am not sure what you are trying to say. Do you not believe that there is any racism at all against blacks?
You indicated that black SAT scores are lower than whites. What is the point you are trying to make? Most people believe that this is a result of socioeconomic variables that need to be fixed. What do you think?
Today Donald Trump said that waterboarding should be brought back and that a black lives protester at his rally should be “roughed up” Are you ok with that and is that what you would like to see happen?
Funny you mention Liberty as their student handbook specifically states students must seek and gain prior approval from the administration before they could participate in demonstrations/protests. And the administration reserves the right to decline approval of the student’s participation if it doesn’t conform with the principles and policies of Liberty U:
Not sure about you…but that doesn’t strike me as a rule which celebrates or allows students room to exercise their free speech expression rights. Especially regarding political speech.
I heard of something similar in your post #327 at DS’s public school more than 10 years ago (not in NYC.) Many students in those few classes (when DS was in that high school) seem to believe that 1) That college won’t take any student from this public high school (despite the fact that many other comparable colleges would take at least some students from their high school every year.) 2) What is worst is that many students believe that the ethnic group the students belong to matters a lot in that college’s admission. So many students who belongs to a “wrong” ethnic group just stopped applying to that college. Not sure what is the cause and what is the result here, but the fact is that only a half Asian got into that college in 4 years and students started to spread the rumor that if her last name happened to be an Asian one, she would not have any chance. (It is somewhat true that there were almost 8-10 students in her class who would be better than her in EC achievement (The ivy league admission game is by and large about EC achievement levels because the usual academic standard at a typical high school (or even SAT level) is intentionally “dumbing down” and de-emphasized for this student pool in this admission system) – and her class rank was not among the very top either. It could be true though many other top students, including DS, just did not want to apply to that college.)
Re: “H and Y which happily accepted a much larger proportion of our respective graduating class…”
This was the case for DS’s public high school graduating class as well.
Actually, in one year around that time, the class president at Y is an Asian American. Relatively speaking, it is likely that minorities (and, yes, gays) tend to be more accepted by most students at this college. (despite the “shrieking girl” that was referred to on another thread. LOL.)
Hillsdale is not the same as the other two you listed.
hillsdale is truly a unique and special place that stands on principal and encourages students to have free thought. if it were a little larger(student body) and perhaps much closer to a city I would recommend it to a lot of future students.
it would be nice if there was a"hillsdale" in every region of the country. but hillsdale is not the same as bob jones etc…
[quote]
I see lazy (and often malicious) conflations between the protests at Missouri and those at Yale—where, in the minds of many pundits, apparently, the school’s debate over racially charged Halloween costumes occurred in an otherwise racism-free zone.
Over the past several years black students at Mizzou were repeatedly called racist names to their faces, the grounds of the school’s Black Culture Center were covered with cotton balls, the center was the target of arson threats, a black professor was spat at and called names by a white man flying a confederate flag from his truck, and a dormitory wall was decorated with feces in the shape of a swastika.
What happened at Mizzou was not a matter of mere insensitivity. It was not an intellectual abstraction. These were terrorist acts, meant to silence and intimidate, and they demanded an immediate and forceful response from school officials, police and the community at large.
@waitingtoexhale… That’s just a bunch of gobbledygook that prioritizes irrational emotional responses over facts. No serious scholar/professional does so.
Eliminating racism is a goal that I think just about everyone here agrees with.
But the way NOT to do it is by calling everyone else racist, demanding admissions to competitive schools despite having lower merit, and finally, insisting the very people you called racist pay for it so you can attend for free. Were these kids never taught how to behave?
You mentioned SAT scores and SES. I am completely in favor of giving low SES kids a race-blind admissions bump, despite the fact that it means my kids have to score higher to compete.
This will help low-income blacks, but also low-income whites, Cambodians, Vietnamese, Latino, etc. Are you ok with that, no matter what the resulting racial mix ends up being?
“You mentioned SAT scores and SES. I am completely in favor of giving low SES kids a race-blind admissions bump, despite the fact that it means my kids have to score higher to compete. This will help low-income blacks, but also low-income whites, Cambodians, Vietnamese, Latino, etc. Are you ok with that, no matter what the resulting racial mix ends up being?”
I’ve thought for a long time that this is the way to go. Since almost everyone agrees with this.
Then we don’t have to argue about whether Malia Obama deserves to get a break based on her ethnic background. I don’t think she should.
Like Barbara Bush at Yale, Malia should be content just getting by with the legacy break from her parents at Columbia, Princeton and Harvard.
I think of them all as being politically conservative. I also don’t think there are many black students at any of them (Hillsdale doesn’t report, so we don’t know - actually Liberty is 15% and Bob Jones is 1%).
It is, perhaps, somewhat more moderate than the other two, which are overtly Christian. I guess one could add Grove City.
In any case,they all seem like places unlikely to have #BlackLivesMatters protests, perhaps I am wrong.