<p>Byerly posts endlessly with the nom de plume NYCFan on other well-known college discussion websites (xoxo, PR etc.). He is a Harvard college graduate, read law at UMich, probably retired, interviews for Harvard, knows people at Princeton, reads all the college dailies daily, has access to a huge storehouse of interesting data and is a relentless Harvard booster. He'll argue with you all day if you suggest in any way that Harvard is not king of the world. No one is the equal of Harvard. He is fun to have around as long as you don't take him too seriously. His postings work better at the wild-wild-west-no-holds-barred websites whence he's wandered over here. What he posts here is the same information he posts all over the place on other websites. It's has the tone of a religious crusade.</p>
<p>Haha, i love you futajalon. way to put him in his place.</p>
<p>cool, thanks for the info guys!</p>
<p>It seems VERY strange to me that using that methodology would place Dartmouth and U Chicago ahead of Stanford and MIT.</p>
<p>Forzagiovanni, how come all your posts on CC are about this one article?</p>
<p>As I have mentioned before, it seems to me that more people want to go to Princeton because they love the school, whereas people tend to choose Harvard for its academic prestige and strength of its GRADUATE PROGRAMS. No one has ever explained to me how Harvard undergrad is any better than at a lesser known school. Princeton's reputation is based on undergrad. Harvard is not. That's the difference, I think.</p>
<p>I'm sure there are those who love Cambridge and the atmosphere at Harvard, as it tends to be a bit more cosmopolitan than Princeton, which can sometimes seem more like a country club than a university, but they are fewer in number, from what I can tell.</p>
<p>I'd go with...Princeton, I think. Boston trumps Princeton, and there is the Princeton prep factor, but Princeton does have a wonderful undergraduate program, and that's more important to me. Besides, I personally can't scoff so much at the preps...I used to be one in middle school(<em>blush</em>). But really. Yale's better than either Harvard or Princeton. It's like Princeton(good undergrad, lots of school spirit, pretty campus...), only less preppy and with a better housing system. And nicer school colors. It's also just an hour's train ride from NYC. <em>thumbs up</em></p>
<p>yea, i think THAT should be the real debate....whether princeton or yale is better....they're both known for providing the best undergraduate experience....but which one is better?</p>
<p>i completely agree with silmon, harvard is known for its graduate programs, while princeton (and even yale to some extent) has built its rep on its undergrad program.</p>
<p>btw, in my personal opinion, i think the sleeper candidate here for best overall undergraduate experience has to be stanford. It's only been around for only a third of the time most of the other ivies have been around, yet Stanford has just as big an endowment, and an equal if not superior undergrad/grad program...</p>
<p>anyway, thats just my crummy ol' two cents........happy new year :)</p>
<p>An earlier poster, forzagiovanni, "mistakenly" listed an out-of-date set of rankings from 3 years ago. Here are the top 20 from the current 2004 rankings:</p>
<p>1 Harvard University 1.000</p>
<p>2 Princeton Universi,ty 0.975</p>
<p>3 Stanford University 0.946</p>
<p>4 Columbia University 0.926</p>
<p>5 California Institute of Technology 0.922</p>
<p>6 Yale University 0.913</p>
<p>7 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 0.877</p>
<p>8 Brown University 0.835</p>
<p>9 University of California, Berkeley 0.806</p>
<p>10 University of California, Los Angeles 0.785</p>
<p>11 University of Pennsylvania 0.784</p>
<p>12 Dartmouth College 0.776</p>
<p>13 Rice University 0.770</p>
<p>14 Duke University 0.755</p>
<p>15 Swarthmore College 0.740</p>
<p>16 Amherst College 0.735</p>
<p>17 University of California, San Diego 0.727</p>
<p>18 Williams College 0.720</p>
<p>19 Georgetown University 0.719</p>
<p>20 Cornell University 0.718</p>
<p>[see: <a href="http://www.consusgroup.com/news/ran...es/colleges.asp%5B/url%5D">http://www.consusgroup.com/news/ran...es/colleges.asp</a> ]</p>
<p>Published on Saturday, December 30, <em>1899</em>
Harvard May Ignore Early Decision</p>
<p>Is the real year supposed to be 1999?</p>
<p>Atlantic Monthly ranks top 10</p>
<ol>
<li>MIT </li>
<li>Princeton</li>
<li>California Institute of Technology</li>
<li>Yale</li>
<li>Harvard</li>
<li>Stanford</li>
<li>Columbia</li>
<li>University of Pennsylvania</li>
<li>Brown<br></li>
<li>Swarthmore.</li>
</ol>
<p>Haha, from your post, futajalon, it sounds like Byerly's greatest and possibly only accomplishment in life is going to Harvard.</p>
<p>That Crimson article about Harvard and ED is from 2002. I thnk that 1899 date has something to do with the start date for the archives.</p>
<p>I'm not trying to be a jerk, but do you guys realize how ridiculous you're looking? I don't have much of a stake in this, but frankly, you are acting like idiots...this might just be what the internet brings out of you. Imagine, many of you (Byerly, ahem) are Ivy League graduates. If you want to give suggestions, give suggestions based on your experiences instead of polls, which shift between years.</p>
<p>For the OP, my advice is to apply to both schools. You can do that, because this is not Early Decision or Early Action. Since both schools are competitive, you would be lucky to attend either one; however, if you do come down to choosing between the two, ask for relatively anecdotal opinions. Stats are accessible to you, even through the internet. I will be attending Princeton University in the fall, so I might be biased, but here is my opinion:</p>
<p>Both schools are excellent, and have stood out among institutions for the last 250+ years. My impression of them is a result of short visits and persistent interviews with my friends.</p>
<p>HARVARD: Harvard, when I visited it, was more city-ish than Princeton. There was a more centralized campus, and everything seemed to rotate around one square. Harvard seemed more traditional in that the older buildings seemed to have been preserved (versus Princeton, which was largely a new campus built around old foundations). Personally, I got a really old-school feeling in the admissions room (in a pleasant way), and the admissions representive seemed to be sort of a laid back intellectual (read: Hemingway). I'm not sure if this was staged, or if this was real, but the impression might play a small part in building the environment. The students were friendly. I did not see any ultra-obsessed people (on the tour, at least) and all students seemed very devoted and diligent (the tour guides told us about the rigors of going through the admissions process to be a tour guide). The dining hall etc. was pretty universal, and most buildings were aesthetically pleasurable. The tour guide related the central church to Harry Potter's Hogwarts, and there was some resemblance. </p>
<p>What I did see that was negative (and note, this is anecdotal) was the tension among the applicants who had come to take the tour. One middle aged parent, an alumni I suppose, pushed himself to the front of the tour group to ask how the fellows in his old dorm were doing. The questions he asked the tour guide were a little absurd ("I had a friend named Roger who worked in the cafeteria, is he still around?"), and I suspected him of just trying to tout his alumni status (he was dressed in a crimson long-sleeved collar shirt and slacks). That might be my cynicism. </p>
<p>This was not really common though. Most of the applicants seemed intimidated (as was I), yet friendly beneath it all. </p>
<p>Harvard's reputation is excellent. I will not say this reputation is built around grad school only, but the grad school plays a large part. Harvard med school, business school, law school are routinely touted as amazing places. I think many people take this to mean that undergraduates do not receive due attention. This question would be better left to someone who has attended Harvard within the last ten years.</p>
<p>PRINCETON: Princeton, like Harvard, was also an amazing campus. Princeton was located in a suburban area, and the campus seemed more expansive than Harvard's. Each building seemed more individual (in that, it stood more by itself) and the landscape was more green. There were trees and bridges, and quite a few of the buildings had an 18th century Victorian feel. The adcoms generally seemed younger than those at Harvard (the oldest rep. that I saw was probably in his 40s, versus a 60-year-old Harvard rep), but the information was much the same. The applicants who had attended during my tour were in larger number, and were asking many questions regarding religion (coincidence I suppose). </p>
<p>Our tour guide was a British Indian, and she was friendly. She made it clear (more so than Harvard's tour guides) that Princeton was not for everyone. "The workload is tough, and many people feel lost. Some of the students can even be a bit quirky" she said. She emphasized Princeton's crew team, but made it evident that the Princeton sports (sans Basketball) were not popular among the student body. The dorm (I did not get to see the dorm at Harvard) had a wooden floor. This is all not relevant, but my friends who attended said that dorms are somewhat prone to leaks. Overall, though, the experience was amazing. </p>
<p>Princeton students, the tour guide said, were often prone to get into the "Princeton bubble." That is, they often felt isolated at campus and lost track of the "real world." That was surprising to me, since Princeton was located an hour away from Philadelphia and New York City. </p>
<p>BOTTOM LINE: Both schools are so well regarded that rankings don't matter. You have already reached the top echelon of undergrad schools (some others, such as Yale, Stanford, MIT, Caltech are also included in this), so now pick based on environment and specialty in major. Princeton DOES offer a well balanced undergraduate education, with stronger undergraduate engineering and math departments than Harvard (so I have heard). Princeton also has a renowned school of Public Policy. Harvard, on the other hand, has great humanities. It's school of government is also well regarded (amazingly...the John F. Kennedy School of Government), but, to my knowledge, is only available for graduates. The atmospheres, as noted above, are different. Choose at your own risk...and, not to sound pessimistic, but apply to both. They are both so competitive that you will be lucky to get into one. The education at both schools is world-class, literally...it depends what you do with it.</p>
<p>props to mahajan on his post! good points made....</p>
<p>i'm going to be going to princeton too, so i also may be biased, but i really liked p-ton's beautiful campus and focus on undergrads. at first, i thought i'd really want to be in a school near the city and preferred harvard, but later found out that i actually LIKED princeton's bubble. but their both awesome schools...</p>
<p>excellent post, mahajan. Thanks for that.</p>
<p>yea, i iwish more people would tell "anecdoes" on these boards, instead of just arguing, i wanna hear more opinions , lol</p>
<p>Very good, majahan. I had the same tour guide at Princeton, I think. An Indian student from London who is a coxswain? I'm sure it was the same one.</p>
<p>I always loved Harvard. I was set on going there for years, but I had a change of heart after thoroughly researching PHYS (pronounced "fizz"--princeton, harvard, yale, stanford). Princeton to me emerged as a clear choice, I decided to apply early, and I'm happy to say that I'll be a Tiger next year. Here were some of the things I found that debunked the myth of Harvard in my mind and caused me to apply to Princeton instead:</p>
<p>-Yes, Harvard has a larger endowment than Princeton. BUT, remember Princeton is a smaller school. If you look at the size of the schools' endowments in proportion to the size of their student bodies, Princeton has the largest endowment per capita out of any university in the world, bar none. (This means that Princeton has the most money to spend on each student.)</p>
<p>-Princeton offers an undergraduate-oriented experience. Princeton's has 5 students per faculty member, while harvard has 8 per faculty member. You will see comparably impressive faculty names at both Harvard and Princeton, but at Harvard, many of those professors are not accessible to undergraduates, whereas at Princeton nearly all of those world-renowned faculty members teach undergraduates. Remember, Princeton has a comparatively tiny grad school population, so nearly all of those names that you see are working in undergrad classes that you could take. In my last visit, it was amazing to see professor Einstein's and John Nash's classrooms. You will actually be able to take classes as an undergraduate with professors like Cornel West (a "star" professor who left Harvard for Princeton because of Princeton's more accepting atmosphere). In fact, he even teaches a freshman seminar (which usually range from 10-15 students). </p>
<p>-The two campuses are a matter of preference, but for me Princeton wins out. One of the reasons I chose to apply early to princeton rather than harvard was that I went to harvard summer school this summer and took a course in literature. First of all, I'll admit that the immediate area of Cambridge, the bums on the road playing music, and the hustle and bustle of cars, can be very charming. It gets old and distracting, though. For my 8 weeks there, the campus was constantly under siege by tourists, and I know a couple of people who had valuables stolen when thieves jumped through the first story dorm windows. I did not feel like my things were safe inside my dorm. Strangers even found their way into my dorm once (despite the ID card swipe at the front). Being in an urban area also means that it was very loud in mine and many other dorms. In the hot summer especially, keeping windows open is a must, which isn't good when you have a highway right next to you with police sirens and fire engines waking you up at all hours of the night. In contrast, Princeton is situated in a (virtually) crime-free area with a nice town next door for basic needs. There are also some really neat areas in the areas immediately surrounding Princeton, too. P's campus is quieter. This, I didn't like at first, until I passed by their train station and saw that New York and Philadelphia are just quick train-rides away, and that the different res. colleges routinely host events in NYC like cheap broadway trips, etc. The campus population is much more tied with the city than you would think. And the nice thing? You can get as much hustle and bustle as you want with your Pton friends in the city, and you can always come back to a safe environment where you can focus on learning without all of the problems of an urban campus. (Personally I like Princeton's gothic architecture, too). </p>
<p>-In terms of prestige, Harvard is a universally recognized name. If that's all you're going for, go to Harvard. Princeton is less widely recognized to the layperson, but as I've found out since my acceptance, the school is very prestigious. I only told a couple of people in secret, and within less than one day, the whole school new. Even total strangers from surrounding schools knew. Parents knew. Even with all of this, I'll still admit that H is more of a brand name, but that's because Princeton does not have a large grad school program, and its undergrad program is also comparatively small. Most of what happens that makes Harvard so prestigious happens at the grad schools. If you're taking rankings into consideration, I've heard (haven't verified--i'm not much for rankings) that princeton has been #1 or co-#1 in USNews for the past 5 years straight. If you look at the USNews' selectivity ranking and Princeton Review's selectivity ranking, both place Princeton about 3 places above Harvard (these selectivity rankings take into account not just percent admitted, but also the quality of the applicant pool). A new ranking is out that averages all the other rankings and takes into account previous years' rankings and statistics places Princeton at the top. Harvard has inflated its admission numbers to low percentages partly by sending out pamphlets and applications to students across America who are registered with the Student Search Service (which students sign up for when they take the SAT), encouraging them to apply, knowing fully that most of them are underqualified. This is one way in which they bolster their admission percentages. On the other hand, I have never received one unsolicited letter from Princeton, because to my knowledge, they don't send them. Princeton's applicant pool is self-selecting (people find and choose the school independently), which makes their admissions statistics, which are comparable to harvard's, very impressive. It's also why Princeton is ranked higher in terms of selectivity--because the applicant pool is more qualified--not as much of an element of kids who are fooling themselves because they got a letter from Harvard telling them to apply. While Harvard peddles prestige, Princeton's reputation has come independently from the quality of the students, faculty, administration, and campus.<br>
I noticed a difference in attitude in the students while at both campuses. The qualities of the different schools seemed to attract different types of students. The students at Harvard both at the summer school and the admission session were prestige-hungry and stiff. I realize that my exposure to the people was limited, but this was the very clear impression that I got. Just look at the Coop, which dedicates multiple levels of the store to selling Harvard-logo paraphernalia. By the end of the summer, I was sick of all the crimson. It seemed that students had lost focus on why they were really there: to study, to learn. It was so commercial, so touristy. In contrast, even though my visits to princeton were more brief, I was impressed by the student body and applicants. I didn't see any of the preppiness that everyone had talked about. As a matter of fact, I don't even remember seeing one popped collar in my entire visit. I got lost on the campus on my way to Frist, and several students, noticing the look on my face, asked me if they could help, and they personally guided me across the campus to the center. Everyone seemed down-to-earth and happy to be there, and happy to have such an educational opportunity, which I suppose is reflected in the rankings, with Princeton placed among P. Review's "happiest students" (harvard is not even on the list. in fact, H law school has some of the nation's law schools' least happy students). </p>
<p>-If you're looking for diversity, Princeton is very different from its image. Everyone seems to remember the extremely preppy Carleton from the TV show "Fresh Prince" applying to Princeton. The school was portrayed as a big country club. I didn't find this to be the case when I was there. Princeton is known to have the best financial aid program of all the ivies (no-loan program), and on top of that it is the 2nd least expensive ivy (behind cornell), which attracts a diverse student body. Also, the campus is very open to new people and new ideas. As i mentioned earlier, Cornel West, one of Harvard's former stars, came to Princeton because of this openness. I've also heard that gay students are happy and unified, and that the university administration is so supportive that it has gone as far as to create a permanent position in the administration at Frist that acts as a gay student resource officer. The campus has even openly welcomed debates and discussions with controversial speakers like Fidel Castro. Everyone has a voice on campus, liberal, conservative, gay, straight, black, white. In contrast, I've heard that Harvard is less cohesive. The sense of community at Princeton is part of the reason why kids love the school, and why they're so happy. In the spirit of Whig-Clio (the first debating society in the country, started at princeton), the students and campus organizations have lively debates, but in the end the campus is a flourishing and friendly community.</p>
<p>-I'll admit that Harvard beats princeton in the colors department. Orange and black do seem garish, but princetonians wear their stripes with pride. </p>
<p>For those of you faced with the decision, I urge you to question what you want in a college. When I questioned my fascination with Harvard, I realized exactly how substantive my reasoning was. I had bought into the hype, the Legally Blonde syndrome. I was making my decision based on the reaction I would get when I told strangers who've been indoctrinated with Harvard Hype. You will feel an empty satisfaction if you make your selection based on rankings or prestige. </p>
<p>I'm not trying to say that Harvard is not a good school. It definitely deserves a place among the top in the country. Ultimately, you need to question your own reasons, what has driven your success so far in life, and choose what school fits your aspirations.</p>
<p>I thought Nash doesn't teach anymore, he just advises senior theses and grad students?</p>