Shenandoah, I really think that you’ve answered your own initial question. Princeton has the highest rate of annual giving among National Universities (62.5%), as well as a freshman retention rate of 98% and a 6-year graduation rate of 97% (by contrast, Stanford’s alumni giving rate is 35.6%, freshman retention rate is 98% and 6-year graduation rate is 96%). Unhappy miserable “ruined” students don’t magically morph into alumni who are passionate about supporting the school, nor would they stay at the school if they were all so nervous and jittery and unhappy.
In my possibly faulty opinion, the fact that you seem much more willing to listen and accept it when people confirm your negative opinions about Princeton suggests that you prefer Stanford. And if that’s the case, you should just make your choice and not look back. Stanford is a terrific school, offering amazing opportunities, with a wonderful group of students, and I’m sure you will thrive there.
For anyone using Michelle Obama’s thesis as an indicator of race relations at Princeton, remember it was written 30 years ago. Princeton of 30 years ago is not the same as it is today.
I feel sorry for Michele Obama and others like her who considered themselves outsiders at Princeton. If that is such an issue then perhaps Princeton (and Stanford) are not the right choices for the OP. There are many colleges where she might be a better fit, although perhaps not on the same tier. For example, a somewhat famous TV actress is sending her son to Howard because of alleged racial profiling at USC, my alma mater.
And I agree with midatlmom that a measure of student satisfaction is the rate of alumni giving.
@midatlmom You have given me a lot of information to think about. Could you by any chance speak to Princeton’s grade deflation / and its possible legacy at Princeton and / or Stanford’s fuzzie / techie divide…these are the two unknowns that have kept me from making a decision.
From a personal standpoint, I was never a fan of grade deflation and I am thrilled that the administration has eliminated the policy. However, I will say that my oldest child probably “suffered” from it the most, yet in spite of grades that were probably lower than her peers at similar schools, she was admitted to a top graduate school where she has thrived. She majored in the humanities, and was able to establish close relations with several of her Princeton professors from Day 1. These amazing scholars wrote her recommendations, were constantly in touch with her and even today, are Facebook friends of hers, meet her for coffee when she visits campus and email her to offer support. Her classes were generally small, and I don’t remember one humanities class where she wasn’t thrilled by the teaching, the curriculum and the depth of class discussions.
I think over the past few years, grade deflation has been sort of ignored by some of the professors and by the time my youngest child started school, it didn’t seem to be as much of an issue. I think that one poster on CC said it best, referring to Princeton as a sort of “we’re all in this together,” rather than an uber-competitive stressful academic experience. I don’t think that will change that much now that’s it’s been eliminated - Princeton will challenge you academically no matter what, but I think that college should be challenging.
One of the things about Princeton that I have always loved is that the kids are not academic grinds. Rather, everyone of my children’s friends was heavily involved in extracurriculars as well - I’m pretty sure that what suffers is sleep.
Are some kids stressed out at Princeton? Sure, just like at other top colleges, including Stanford, the students who attend have excelled in high school and have high expectations of themselves. It’s sometimes difficult to realize that you’re not the top student or the standout anymore, but the vast majority of students recognize that the opportunity to interact with some of the best professors in the country, with a group of peers who almost always have a nerdy side that thrives on academic challenge, on a beautiful campus dedicated to undergraduates in a school with unparalleled resources is a great and special opportunity.
I’m not saying that Stanford doesn’t have all of these factors as well (I have no specific knowledge about the school), but I can’t imagine that anything could be much better than the Princeton undergraduate experience.
OP what those minorities are telling you about self-segregation is very likely to be true. It’s up to you to determine how much that will play a role in your decision. Yes people self segregate due to race and tribal associations based on sociology and psychology, but segregation indicates that each racial group has some “friction” in associating. This could mean they aren’t used to being with each other, or more extremely they have some bias. The fact that you’ve had such long exposure to both is incredible for anybody, so go with you’re gut.
Also I’m sorry to say this, but it’s not surprising white students wouldn’t pick up on this thing. Many people see self segregation as a normal thing–so having a white only group, Asian only group, black only group is normal, ideal, and what is expected of them. This isn’t a vast majority nor everybody, but some people unlike you and me live in virtually all white neighborhoods hence would not see this segregation as abnormal.
And just to note, on a separate visit I met someone who transferred out of Princeton to a LAC after one semester. So I too met someone who left. They had even done a summer program there, so I’d say they should have had a better understanding of the school in addition to being well versed in school differences when I spoke to them. He (white person) had a negative time there with the stress, culture, etc. However, to be fair, it was still my top choice after speaking to him. That being said I was not accepted (waitlisted), but H and Y are good consolation prizes, eh?
No need to hate on New Jersey, friends! I live in Princeton so if that’s where you decided to go and you want to know more about all the great things to do here, hit me up.
Hmmn, I’m amused by the pithy comments of some folks who can make the profound jump and projection of what it feels like to be a part of a culture and race, and how they should or should not feel within institutions they were previously barred. Must be just dandy to have that level of hubris and putative insight into another race…