<p>rjkofnovi,</p>
<p>Way to build a strong argument! </p>
<p>Is this level of thinking representative of what one can expect at U Michigan?</p>
<p>Maybe I'm overrrating the place.</p>
<p>Not at all. I find it difficult to argue with anyone who always appears to be pompous. I reread your post. Where is your strong argument other than your opinion? If this is the level of thinking of what one can expect at Princeton, it's no wonder many people might not chose to attend there. By the way, i too feel Princeton is at or near the top of the list of the best colleges in the country. It's your attitude that i read all over these message boards that gets to me. You never seem to give any top public universities the same respect you give to top privates.</p>
<p>Um, I don't think hawkette is a Princeton alum.</p>
<p>I am however.</p>
<p>And I admit ignorance when I am ignorant. For example:</p>
<p>Um, I don't think hawkette is a Princeton alum.</p>
<p>Aplogies to you Alumother. I know Princeton is a wonderful school. Not my intention to offend an alumnus of such a fine institution.</p>
<p>Oh gosh am I in the wrong place? I thought I was somewhere where we are all really rude to eachother and flame eachother. Civility? Eeek.......</p>
<p><em>shakes head, backing out of the room, wondering when this 50-year old mother started to act like a teenager.....:)</em></p>
<p>BTW, no offense taken in the slightest. I am embarassed, perhaps I was being too snide. Goodness you should READ some of the times when people have bitten me to pieces here.</p>
<p>Rjko,
I think that U Michigan is a fine university, but for undergraduate education, I don’t think it is in Princeton’s class. I’m sorry. </p>
<p>You asked why I think this. Please consider the following comparisons between U Michigan and Princeton. The differences are not small. </p>
<p>O B J E C T I V E D A T A </p>
<p>UNDERGRADUATE ENROLLMENT<br>
Princeton 4760 U Michigan 26,083 </p>
<p>% AND # OF STUDENTS WHO ARE IN-STATE<br>
Princeton 19% (904) U Michigan 68% (17,736)</p>
<p>% OF FEMALE STUDENTS<br>
Princeton 48% U Michigan 52% </p>
<p>% OF WHITE/NON-HISPANIC STUDENTS<br>
Princeton 65% U Michigan 66% </p>
<p>% FROM PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOLS<br>
Princeton na U Michigan 80% </p>
<p>% OF STUDENTS IN GREEK LIFE (Male & Female)
Princeton na U Michigan 16%/15% </p>
<p>TOP MAJORS AT EACH SCHOOL (acc to collegeboard.com)
Princeton 25% Social Sciences, 15% Engineering, 9% History, 8% Biology, 7% English, 7% Public Administration & Social Services, 6% Philosophy & Religious Studies, 6% Physical Sciences, 5% Psychology
U Michigan 17% Engineering, 16% Social Sciences, 8% Psychology, 6% Arts, 6% Biology, 6% Business/Marketing, 6% English, </p>
<p>IS & OOS COST (Tuition & Fees)<br>
Princeton $ 34,290 U Michigan $10,341<br>
Princeton $ 34,290 U Michigan $30,154 </p>
<p>TOTAL COLLEGE ENDOWMENT AND PER CAPITA (undergrad and grad)
Princeton $15.8 bn ($2.51mm) U Michigan $7.09 bn ($172,746)</p>
<p>AVERAGE HIGH/LOW IN FEBRUARY<br>
Princeton 41-24 U Michigan 34/19 </p>
<p>GRADUATION RATES<br>
-% OF STUDENTS EXPECTED TO GRADUATE IN 6 YEARS:
Princeton 96% U Michigan 83%
-% OF STUDENTS WHO DO GRADUATE IN 6 YEARS:
Princeton 96% U Michigan 87%
-% OF STUDENTS WHO GRADUATE IN 4 YEARS:
Princeton 89% U Michigan 70%
FRESHMAN RETENTION RATE<br>
Princeton 98% U Michigan 96%
USNWR GRADUATION & RETENTION RANK:<br>
Princeton 2nd U Michigan 26th </p>
<p>FACULTY RESOURCES<br>
-% OF CLASSES WITH <20 STUDENTS
Princeton 72% U Michigan 45%
-% OF CLASSES WITH 50+ STUDENTS
Princeton 10% U Michigan 17%
-FACULTY/STUDENT RATIO<br>
Princeton 5/1 U Michigan 15/1<br>
USNWR FACULTY RESOURCES RANK<br>
Princeton 3rd U Michigan 69th </p>
<p>STUDENT SELECTIVITY<br>
-% ACCEPTANCE RATE<br>
Princeton 7% U Michigan 47%
-SAT/ACT RANGE (Middle 50%)<br>
Princeton 1370-1590 U Michigan 1210-1420
-% OF STUDENTS RANKING IN TOP 10% IN HS CLASS
Princeton 94% U Michigan 90%
% OF STUDENTS WITH HS GPA > 3.75 (Unweighted)
Princeton 82% U Michigan na </p>
<h1>OF NMS FINALISTS IN 2007 (% of student body)</h1>
<pre><code>Princeton 179 (15%) U Michigan 62 (1.0%)
</code></pre>
<p>% OF STUDENTS SCORING 700+ ON SAT CRITICAL READING
Princeton 73% U Michigan 23%
% OF STUDENTS SCORING 700+ ON SAT MATH
Princeton 74% U Michigan 43%
% OF STUDENTS SCORING 30+ ON ACT<br>
Princeton na U Michigan 43%
USNWR SELECTIVITY RANK<br>
Princeton 3rd U Michigan 23rd </p>
<p>USNWR FINANCIAL RESOURCES RANK<br>
Princeton 12th U Michigan 29th </p>
<p>ALUMNI GIVING %<br>
Princeton 60% U Michigan 17%
USNWR ALUMNI GIVING RANK<br>
Princeton 1st U Michigan 83rd </p>
<p>S U B J E C T I V E D A T A </p>
<p>PEER ASSESSMENT<br>
Princeton 4.9 U Michigan 4.5</p>
<p>I am a proud graduate of my flagship state institution, from which I received a fine education.
Princeton is just at another level in almost every way. You can't compare the two. I'm glad my daughter decided to take it to another level.</p>
<p>I went to a University of Michigan feeder high school in-state so I have a pretty good idea of how strong the school is. At my HS, at least 2/3 of the "Ivy caliber" students(3.9+ GPA, 2200+ SAT, 33+ ACT) end up going to UMich because it's such a good deal in-state financially. So to Alexandre's defense, there are a lot of smart kids there.</p>
<p>In fact, I would venture to say the top 200 students at Michigan are probably roughly as accomplished/intelligent as the top 200 students at Princeton. However, past this point, that is when one notices a world of difference between Princeton and Michigan. There are kids who get into Michigan with like a 25 ACT and a 3.6-3.7 GPA(even less if URM). At Princeton, the bottom 200 students are almost the same academically as the rest of the student body.</p>
<p>Let's forget about prestige, job placement, academic quality, faculty strength, wtc. for a moment here and consider the OP's situation. As a dad, are you confident that he will be the top of his class at Michigan considering how vulnerable he has been of late? If the answer is no, then you owe him the opportunity to go to Princeton so he can clear his mind and get a fresh start amidst the leaders of tomorrow and scholars from all over the world.</p>
<p>I may have missed an item skimming this thread, but I'm wondering whether OP considered the honors college at U Mich and, if so, how that would affect the opinions expressed here.</p>
<p>EAD,
Just to be clear, my comments were about the undergraduate student body and the quality of that group and that classroom experience. You'll get no argument from me on the very best 200 students at U Michigan in a head-to-head matchup with the very best at Princeton. I would agree with your assessment that they can stack up (and I would extend this thought to a great many colleges across the country as there are some truly outstanding students at many lower-ranked colleges, eg, BYU, Texas A&M, U Florida, and many more).</p>
<p>I agree with the instate focus noted in post #68, at least from one anecdote.
My son's friend at Dartmouth came from a working class suburb of Detroit. He got tired of the blank stares he got when he told people he went to Dartmouth. He finally began to explain that Dartmouth was "the Michigan of the East".</p>
<p>"-SAT/ACT RANGE (Middle 50%)
Princeton 1370-1590 U Michigan 1210-1420
-% OF STUDENTS RANKING IN TOP 10% IN HS CLASS
Princeton 94% U Michigan 90%
% OF STUDENTS WITH HS GPA > 3.75 (Unweighted)
Princeton 82% U Michigan na
% OF STUDENTS SCORING 700+ ON SAT CRITICAL READING
Princeton 73% U Michigan 23%
% OF STUDENTS SCORING 700+ ON SAT MATH
Princeton 74% U Michigan 43%
% OF STUDENTS SCORING 30+ ON ACT
Princeton na U Michigan 43% </p>
<p>I have no idea if a particular person will get a better education at Princeton or Michigan.</p>
<p>However, when I look at the above objective data, one thing strikes me, Michigan has more students that score higher on test scores than Princeton. Michigan also has more students with top grades than Princeton. Does this make a difference?</p>
<p>I don't know. I have to think, with what, 10,000 courses, and with the opportunity to take graduate classes with graduate students at Michigan, anybody can be challenged at the school. With the honors college, the residential college, Michigan's strong engineering school in addition to the graduate courses available, again, I don't see how a student can't be academically challenged at the school.</p>
<p>I was just at Michigan over the weekend, and I think the school is fantastic, and some of the students I talked to or listened to blew me away with their intelligence and communication skills. Some did not, to be fair; although, I didn't meet anybody who wasn't smart.</p>
<p>The students I met at Michigan enjoyed their experience at the school. There is an incredible amount of school spirit. </p>
<p>I really like the social scene at Michigan too. </p>
<p>For many students, Michigan was their first choice when they were deciding which school to attend.</p>
<p>Oh...I really don't like the weather at Michigan. </p>
<p>Others can talk about the virtues of Princeton. I have heard it is a pretty good school. :)</p>
<p>Danas, I though Harvard was the Michigan of the East! hehe!</p>
<p>Hawkette, it was not my intent to insult anybody's intelligence. In fact, I have always expressed my admiration for Princeton. I often say that it is the #1 undergraduate institution in the US. I also openly admitted above that I would personally pick Princeton over Michigan...twice. But to say that Princeton is much better than Michigan is an insult to my intelligence. Michigan is not merely a top 5 public university. It is one of the top 10 universities in the US and one of the top 20 universities on Earth. </p>
<p>But since you took the time to go through the USNWR, why not share other USNWR rankings that are applicable to the OP's son. If I remember correctly, his son is interested in Engineering. Like I said above, Princeton is indeed better than Michigan, but not in Engineering or Business. The USNWR undergraduate rankings seem to agree with me on this one. According to the USNWR, Michigan and Princeton are peers in Engineering. </p>
<p>UNDERGRADUATE ENGINEERING:</p>
<h1>7 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor 4.4/5.0</h1>
<h1>12 Princeton University 4.1/5.0</h1>
<p>AEROSPACE ENGINEERING:</p>
<h1>3 University of Michigan Ann Arbor</h1>
<h1>8 Princeton University</h1>
<p>BIOMEDICAL ENGINEERING:</p>
<h1>9 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor</h1>
<p>N/A Princeton University (I don't think Princeton has a Biomedical Engineering program)</p>
<p>CHEMICAL ENGINEERING:</p>
<h1>7 Princeton University</h1>
<h1>11 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor</h1>
<p>CIVIL ENGINEERING:</p>
<h1>7 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor</h1>
<h1>15 Princeton University</h1>
<p>COMPUTER ENGINEERING:</p>
<h1>7 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor</h1>
<h1>13 Princeton University</h1>
<p>ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING:</p>
<h1>5 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor</h1>
<h1>11 Princeton University</h1>
<p>ENGINEERING PHYSICS:</p>
<h1>5 Princeton University</h1>
<h1>5 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor</h1>
<p>ENVIRONMENTAL ENGINEERING:</p>
<h1>3 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor</h1>
<h1>16 Princeton University</h1>
<p>INDUSTRIAL ENGINEERING:</p>
<h1>2 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor</h1>
<p>N/A Princeton University (again, I don't think Princeton offers Industrial Engineering)</p>
<p>MATERIALS SCIENCES:</p>
<h1>3 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor</h1>
<p>N/A Princeton University </p>
<p>MECHANICAL ENGINEERING:</p>
<h1>4 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor</h1>
<h1>13 Princeton University</h1>
<p>NUCLEAR ENGINEERING (Graduate rankings)*:</p>
<h1>1 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor</h1>
<p>N/A Princeton University</p>
<ul>
<li>Roughly 60-80 (15-20 per graduating class) Michigan undergrads major in Nuclear Engineering at any point in time, but for some reason, the USNWR does not have an undergraduate ranking for Nuclear Engineering.</li>
</ul>
<p>Not sure why that is Alexandre. My sister-in-law graduated from Michigan with a degree in Nuclear Engineering. She is one of the smartest people i know.</p>
<p>I tell you guys one thing..i've been to many prestigious universities like Emory, Vanderbilt, Duke, Columbia, NYU, Northwestern, UIUC, University of Chicago and there is not that much different btw these universities. Like Alexandre said some people think that UM is somehow behing of Princeton and i personally don't see that.I think here in america people are obssesed with the ivy league universities and think that large schools like UCLA UM, UCSD, UVA, UW are inferior that the top 5 elite universities.Looking only at the "brand name" when choosing a school is not very wise..like we have seen in these thread for eng. UM is superior than Princeton.</p>
<p>UCLA, Ph.D., brillar, Alumother, Relampago, midatlmom, rjkofnovi, evil<em>asian</em>dictator, Alumother, hawkette, danas, dstark, Alexandre….. thank you all for your input and advices. My son finally made his decision and choose Princeton. </p>
<p>After having different opinions and advices, my son did the following:</p>
<p>1) Made a “matter” list with about 30 items including name recognition, program, location, weather, GF, class size, possible school working loading, student fan base for sports, future academic performance, parent feeling (thanks)……
2) Then, weight the factors with different numbers (-2 to 7, I don’t know why he choose these numbers).
3) Sum all the number together. Princeton 53.5 vs UM 47.5
4) Talk with his friends, teachers, possible GFs.
5) Finally, making decision and landing at P.</p>
<p>Your inputs make me better understanding the two great schools (you can see the numbers are very close). Thanks.</p>
<p>"Then, weight the factors with different numbers (-2 to 7, I don’t know why he choose these numbers)."</p>
<p>Let us face it dad81, your son is probably smarter than most of us, so he will probably do a lot of things we won't understand! LOL!</p>
<p>He made the right choice if you ask me. Congratulations!</p>
<p>Princeton was the right choice. That's awesome!</p>
<p>dad81, good luck to your son.</p>
<p>Glad he chose Princeton too. Everyone should be happy now. Best of luck.
:-)</p>