Princeton vs. WashU (Full Tuition Scholarship) vs. Emory (Full Ride Scholarship)

College Search & Selection
1

I want to preface by saying I am fully aware how unbelievably lucky I am to be faced with this choice. I am so grateful for these options, and I don’t want to come across like I’m just here to flex. With that said, I am very conflicted right now, and would truly appreciate any advice/insight.

Financial Situation: I have talked to my parents at-length, and they can comfortably pay for my undergrad education and even law school, if that is the route I ultimately choose. I know this is a very privileged position to be in. I don’t want to always rely on my parents’ money, but they have made it clear that they are happy to invest in my education.

Academic Interests: I know I want to study the humanities or social sciences, with interests in English, political science, history, and philosophy. I am strongly considering pursuing law school after my undergrad.

  • Princeton: I am definitely interested in the Woodrow Wilson School. While I don't have any background in public policy, it seems like an interdisciplinary major that allows me to tackle real-world problems. I would also perhaps get a certificate in Humanistic Studies.
  • WashU: I would love to major in the Interdisciplinary Project in the Humanities, which is an interdisciplinary major that bridges humanistic disciplines. There are great opportunities for research and close relationships with faculty, as a smaller department.
  • Emory: I am considering a joint major in English and History, as well as the very new major in Philosophy, Politics, and Law, which seems like a great match for my interests.

Visits: I have visited WashU and Emory, and I really liked both. I would say I enjoyed my experience at WashU a little more, due to some combination of the campus, the other scholarship finalists, the interdisciplinary humanities major mentioned above, and the faculty I met. That said, I like that Emory seems to offer more formal benefits with the Scholars Program (priority class and housing, special advising, summer funding, etc.), and it is a full ride (WashU would cost about $15000 more than Emory more each year.) I will visit Princeton during their Previews on the 15-16.

Personal Concerns: Right now, a lot of my family/family friends are telling me to go to Princeton for the name/connections/opportunities. Just how much of an advantage do you think Princeton offers–in terms of an intellectual and engaged student body, career networking and internship/research opportunities, and law school placement–compared to WashU and Emory, which are also elite institutions? Also, how much more difficult might Princeton be? I want to be challenged and pushed in college, but I would also like to maintain a relatively good GPA (for law school) and most importantly a healthy balance with extracurriculars/social life.

Again, I know how fortunate I am to get to make this decision, but I would love any help in picking the right school for me. Sorry for the length of this post, and thank you for any and all insights!

2

If it is not a significant financial burden for your parents - and it would not affect them if one or possibly both of them lost their jobs - and it would not significantly affect their retirement - then pick the one you like best. Would it affect college for any siblings you might have? I doubt there will be much of a difference in difficulty between the schools. You are going to ask your parents for $0 or $60K or $300K. This may or may not be significant to your family.

The market value of your intended undergraduate degree is going to be minimal compared to a STEM field. That being said, Princeton is going to open more doors.

Colleges tend to place their graduates locally. Atlanta is growing. The Tri-state area is on a decline. St. Louis is mixed. Where do you intend to live after college?

The job market for lawyers is not all that great unless you attend one of the top law schools. You might change your mind during undergrad too. Which will help you get into your intended graduate school?

3

For what it’s worth… Since you’re strongly considering law school after college… A ranking of top 50 “feeder” colleges to “Yale Med, Chicago Business and all those other elite business, medical and law schools…” A 2016 WSJ article:

http://collegematchus.com/ranking-the-colleges-top-colleges-that-feed-alumni-into-grad-school-programs/

Princeton #3
Emory #36
WashU #47

Of course, ultimately it’s all about how you do and not the ranking, but Princeton with its strong alumni network is definitely an advantage.

4

The ranking @TiggerDad posted was quite interesting.

It is also one where the raw numbers are perhaps more interesting than the ranking.

“The rankings are based on the number of students a college sends to a grad school divided by the college’s class size.”

HYP were in a league by themselves in the 21-16% range.

Emory and WashU were in the 2% range.

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What’s even more interesting is that Princeton doesn’t have law, medical and business schools unlike HYS that round up the top 4. These professional schools favor their own undergrads. For example, I read somewhere that Harvard Medical School consists of about 50% from Harvard College graduates.

6

That WSJ table is actually from well over a decade ago, but the numbers probably haven’t changed much.

That said, go with fit if costs aren’t really a concern.

HYPS place well in part because they have a lot of the very tippy-top students.

7

BTW, do note however that there is a distinct East Coast bias in what the WSJ considered top professional schools.

“So for medicine, our schools were Columbia; Harvard; Johns Hopkins; the University of California, San Francisco; and Yale”.
4 on the East Coast. No WashU, which is seen as one of the top med schools.

“while our MBA programs were Chicago; Dartmouth’s Tuck School; Harvard; MIT’s Sloan School; and Penn’s Wharton School.”
Again, 4 on the East Coast when the M7 is HBS, Stanford GBS, Wharton, Booth, Kellogg, Sloan, CBS (4 of 7 on the east coast and no Tuck)

“In law, we looked at Chicago; Columbia; Harvard; Michigan; and Yale.”
Only 3 on the East Coast this time.
YHS-CCN has 2/3rds on the east coast.

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Good catch @PurpleTitan. I didn’t see how old the table was until I clicked the “download” link. I only saw the date of the WSJ article, lol. I also agree that the numbers probably haven’t changed much.

9

“Also, how much more difficult might Princeton be? I want to be challenged and pushed in college, but I would also like to maintain a relatively good GPA (for law school) and most importantly a healthy balance with extracurriculars/social life.”

Yes, Princeton is rigorous. And law schools know that. The acceptance rate for Princeton students to the top med schools and law schools is very high. You would not have been accepted if you were not an excellant student. Emory & WashU and fine universities. They have many great qualities and reasons for a student to select them. I saying clearly do not miss the opportunity to study at Princeton because you are afraid to apply yourself at Princeton so that you can attend a great law school.

Given your interests consider the Humanities Sequence. https://humstudies.princeton.edu/humanities-sequence/ Students who complete the full year will be eligible to apply for international opportunities in the sophomore year, including trips to Greece and Rome.

Princeton Women in Economics and Policy is an organization for undergraduate women who are interested in studying or building careers in economics, politics, and public policy. Princeton has a long, illustrious history of educating and employing women who are preeminent leaders, voices, and thinkers in economics, public policy, and politics. Some of Princeton’s more well-known alumni include Queen Noor of Jordan ‘73, Sonia Sotomayor ‘76, Meg Whitman ‘77, Anne-Marie Slaughter ‘80, Elena Kagan ‘81, Michelle Obama ‘85, Wendy Kopp ‘89, Ellen Pao ‘91, and Andrea Jung (CEO of Grameen Bank, ‘79).

The Program in Law and Public Affairs (LAPA) draws upon academic, legal practice, governmental, perspectives as well as those from policy-making institutions to explore the role of law in constituting democratic politics and democratic societies. LAPA selects students for Arthur Liman Fellowships which enables students to spend 10 weeks during the upcoming summer in an internship to respond to problems of inequality and to improve access to justice. Any freshman, sophomore, or junior undergraduate may apply for a fellowship. The selected students attend the annual Liman Public Interest Law Colloquium at Yale Law School. LAPA will pay your expenses. In 2017 the fellowships provide a summer stipend of $4,000. The fellowship is funded by the Liman Foundation, directed by Emily Liman '85. Stephen Macedo, selected as a fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, was the founding director of Princeton’s Program in Law and Public Affairs. He writes and teaches in American Constitutionalism, Ethics and Public Affairs, Citizenship, Rights, Public Education Policy, Church-State Relations, and International Justice. The Woodrow Wilson School offers a four-year M.P.A.-J.D. Joint Program in Law and Public Affairs in cooperation with several law schools including those of New York University, Columbia, Stanford and Yale.

The above are rational reasons to attend Princeton. The emotional reasons may be even stronger. There is something special about studying Constitutional Law at a university where the president of the university, John Witherspoon, was one of the original signors of the Declaration of Independence. Witherspoon educated many of America’s political leaders, including James Madison and Aaron Burr, three U.S. Supreme Court judges, 10 Cabinet members, 28 U.S. Senators, 49 Congressmen and 12 Continental Congressmen. Richard Stockton '1748, a Princeton University trustee, was a member of the Second Continental Congress and a signer of the Declaration of Independence. Two streets in downtown Princeton are named after the two Princeton signers of the Declaration of Independence. The Revolutionary War was fought on the Princeton campus. A portrait of George Washington after the Battle of Princeton hangs in the University Art Museum. It has been estimated that 200 Princeton alumni fought in the Revolutionary War. Two canons from the Revolutionary War are still on the campus today. (If you go to Princeton Preview see if you can find the canons.) The Continental Congress met in Nassau Hall from July to November of 1783, thus making it the capitol of the United States for five months. To help the struggling college, General Washington made a contribution of fifty guineas. The trustees responded by requesting that he sit for a portrait by Charles Wilson Peale. This portrait now hangs in the Faculty Room of Nassau Hall. Years later Washington wrote, “no college has turned out better scholars or more estimable characters than Nassau.” James Madison '1771 the “Father of the Constitution”, "Father of the Bill of Rights”, fourth president of the United States, and author of a third of the Federalist Papers graduated from Princeton in 1771.

Living up to its motto “In the Nation’s Service and in the Service of All Nations,” Princeton University has educated thousands of individuals who have dedicated their lives to public service, including two U. S. presidents (Woodrow Wilson '1879 and James Madison '1771); three vice president, hundreds of U. S. and state legislators (the House of Representatives, for example, has housed a Princeton alumnus every year since it first met in 1789) and 44 state governors. Princeton has produced a higher number of U.S. Senators, Governors and U.S. Representatives per capita than any other school in the country.

10

Princeton. I think it is an easy choice since your parents can comfortably pay for it! While all your options are great, Princeton is clearly the top one in terms of educational quality, resources, connections etc

11

Another vote for Princeton here. I say this as an Emory student.

12

I can tell you from personal experience that this is not true, at least not when I was a student at HMS. However, Harvard undergraduates were highly represented in our class.

13

It sounds like you would enjoy WashU the most. And it is a good financial compromise. Strong students will fare well anywhere.

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@acasperxo Since you have expressed interest in studying the Humanities I thought that I would explain the Humanities Sequence course. If you have a serious desire to study the humanities the Humanities Sequence would be a great start.

The first semester covers classical antiquity to the middle ages. The second semester covers the Renaissance through the modern period. The course was extended into the 20th century with the addition of Humanities 220, a one-credit course that covers Freud, Joyce, Eliot, and others. The intensive four-course sequence introduces a group of first-year students to art, literature, philosophy, religion, and history of Western civilization through the works of Homer, Virgil, Plato, Aristotle, Sophocles, Cicero, St. Augustine, Aquinas, Boethius, Ovid, Dante, Machiavelli, Cervantes, Shakespeare, Milton, Kant, Marx and many others. Students get the sense of continuity and tradition, and they see how the texts connect with each other. The course enables students to gain a sense of where the important thinkers fit in their historical context and in the Western tradition more broadly. Students develop a frame of reference that’s deep and broad and historically rich. Students attend three 50-minute lectures and two faculty lead 80-minute precepts each week. The HUM Sequence counts as two courses each semester. The HUM Sequence helps people to develop a baseline for more advanced study in the humanities. The course is taught by 12 highly distinguished senior humanities faculty from a variety of disciplines.

Since the class sizes are small, students in the sequence often form strong social bonds as they participate during both lectures and precepts. The precepts are limited to 12 students per precept.
The alums of the sequence voluntarily serve as mentors to the students taking the sequence. The mentorship program is a way for alums to stay involved and is “an informal opportunity for people to talk about how they’re doing in the course, and how they should think about their studies after the HUM sequence.

Students have the resources of the 92,000 works in the Princeton University Art Museum. The class takes trips to the Greek and Roman galleries of the Metropolitan Museum of Art and the Met Cloisters in New York City. The Met Cloisters is a museum in NYC, specializing in European medieval architecture, sculpture and decorative arts, with a focus on the Romanesque and Gothic periods. (The Cloisters is one of my favorite museums in the entire world.) Depending on the schedule students have attended the Metropolitan Opera in Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts or attended a performance at the Brooklyn Academy of Music.

The endowment at WashU is $7.7 billion. The endowment at Princeton University is $25.9 billion. The substantial endowment at Princeton enables the university to provide international trips to students. Students who have completed the HUM Sequence course are invited to take a trip to Greece or Rome during fall break of their sophomore year; costs for the trip are covered by the University. A recent Shakespeare course took students to Stratford-upon-Avon so students could see a Shakespeare play in a one room theatre with the audience on three sides. English majors are eligible for a fellowship to study English literature at Lincoln College at Oxford University. Recent courses have taken students to Havana, Peru, Mexico, Japan, Kenya, Bermuda, Panama, France, China, Brazil, Spain, Portugal, Russia, Argentina, and probably many more that I have missed. Most Princeton students have an international experience.

So how does the HUM Sequence match up to your interests:

“interdisciplinary major that bridges humanistic disciplines:

The HUM Sequence covers art, literature, philosophy, religion, and history of Western civilization

“research”
As a Humanities major or a WWS major you are required to conduct independent research your junior and senior years.

“close relationships with faculty”
The HUM Sequence precepts are limited to 12 students. You will meet twice per week with senior faculty who may be world famous in their academic field. All professors have office hours so that students can drop by to discuss the course. As a junior and senior you will work one on one with your faculty adviser on your independent work.

“healthy balance with extracurriculars/social”
Princeton students compete in 35 varsity sports, participate in over 300 students organizations, and perform in 70 to 80 student musical groups. Good time management is important.

“special advising, summer funding”
Students are assigned to live in one of the residential colleges. Each residential college has academic advisers. Freshman also have an upper class student assigned to help them choose courses and make the transition to college life. There are many opportunities for summer funding for taking international, courses, conducting research, or working for non profits.

The humanities sequence has an extensive and challenging reading list. If you decide to attend Princeton and take the HUM Sequence I would expect that you would tell your parents that you love the course but you have never studied so hard for one course.

15

For an intellectual challenge, Princeton. For less stress, Emory. WashU is in between.

One more factor is money. WashU and Emory are giving you money. Hard to pass that up.

WashU and Emory Law are ranked in the Top 20. Which doesn’t really mean anything comparing to Princeton as it has no professional postgrad schools unlike its Ivy peers.

The Princeton alumni list is pretty impressive though, although be snarky Ellen Pao is sort of the Elizabeth Holmes on that list.

16

@PurpleTitan : Agree that the survey had a distinct bias for East Coast schools. For example, survey did not include Northwestern’s Kellogg business school yet it has been ranked from #1 to #4 consistently, and is an M-7 school.

Also, of course Princeton would be a feeder school as its students test well & Princeton has no law or medical school.

P.S. OP has no wrong choice since all options are affordable in OP’s case, and since all three schools are outstanding academically.

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Aside from the “study” being well over a decade old and the distinct east coast bias, it seems like higher concentration get into the east coast elite schools through wealth and connections. How do we know those people don’t use the same advantage for their jobs that in turn lead to higher chance to top MBA programs or even law schools, etc?
I read that one of the persons involved in recent admission scandal with falsified SAT scored only 1600s out of 2400 if there weren’t help and not only did she get into some top school, she also got positions in investment banking and wealth management with multiple companies after graduation, likely through her dad’s connection in the field. The people with all that connections have their advantages compounded through each step. They are more concentrated in certain schools and the “placement” stats include that. But those stats may not mean much to you if you don’t have the hooks.