Princeton's University recognizes sponsors of early black students

Parents Forum
21

<p>Fewer African-American students at Princeton today than in 1971, and many fewer low-income ones.</p>

<p>"Two-thirds of Harvard students receive financial aid, and the average grant award for next year is expected to be more than $33,000, or 70 percent of the total cost of attendance."</p>

<p>Another non-starter. It is true that 2/3rds of Harvard students receive financial aid,, but only half receive financial aid FROM HARVARD. The rest is made up of outside scholarships, are not based on need, and (like all COFHE schools) need-based aid is actually reduced when students receive outside scholarship assistance. </p>

<p>"Princeton continues to enhance the economic diversity of its undergraduate population, as 55 percent of the freshman class enrolled in 2006 is receiving financial aid under the University’s groundbreaking “no loan” program."</p>

<p>This is not a bad thing, no, I'll change that, and say it is a good thing. But the bulk (majority) of the additional students receiving grants as a result of "no-loan" are from families earning $100k-$160k. What the program did was make it possible for Princeton to continue to compete with the Emories and Vanderbilts for relatively high income (top quintile) students by offering very small scholarships (while the Emories offered larger "merit aid" awards.) It is a good thing, of course, but signficiantly less than meets the eye.</p>

<p>Avoid the press releases, and seek out the actual data.</p>

<p>"A lot is being done to get the message out. But Weenie's point stands. Getting poor kids into college, any college, preventing them from dropping out for a host of reasons, is more important than getting a kid or two into top schools."</p>

<p>Spot on, and for those who are really competitive, they might get into a really selective school like Berea.</p>

22

<p>No matter how you slice it, whether it's 2/3 or 1/2, it shows that a high proportion of Harvard students do not need to receive full scholarships. It's coal to Newcastle. The coal should go to different places and recipients. Would I appreciate not having to pay two full fares? You bet. Are there thousands upon thousands who need financial aid more than my kids. That, too. Which is why I did not steer my kids toward merit money.</p>

23

<p>mini...
Fewer African-American students at Princeton today than in 1971?
The article said that there were 11 who graduated in 1968. Princeton's Common Data Set for 2005-2006 says there are 124 matriculated AA freshmen and over 400 undergraduates in total.</p>

24

<p>Mini is incorrect in the statement that there were more blacks at Princeton in 1971 than today. I found the following information in a Princeton online newsletter <a href="http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S16/31/90A28/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S16/31/90A28/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>'Kaleidoscope' conference remarks by President Emeritus William G. Bowen
Prepared for "Kaleidoscope: An Alumni Conference on Race and Community at Princeton University"
Nov. 10, 2006</p>

<p>Excerpt from article:
Under the leadership of President Goheen, Princeton proceeded in the 1960s to recruit more African-American students—at first rather timidly and then more and more aggressively. The numbers were very small in the early years, and the class of 1971, which I always think of as the Jerome Davis-Gene Lowe class, contained only 14 or 15 African-Americans. </p>

<p>As the OP for this thread, I am surprised at the turn it has taken. I originally posted the Trenton Times article because I was happy to see that Princeton University was honoring the wonderful families who made the black students feel at home at a time when very few blacks studied at Princeton. I took it as a given that times have changed dramatically, and that there are many more students from diverse backgrounds, including black students, at Princeton and similar schools today. I am also surprised at Mini's statement that there are fewer blacks at Princeton today than in 1971, as I have usually found him to be very accurate in the information he posts.</p>

25

<p>mini: Great post in #21. No matter how you try to explain it, defenders of the Ivy status quo don't want to hear it.</p>

<p>Glad that you mentioned Berea. Now THAT is a wonderful college the ACTUALLY changes lives, unlike some colleges whose reputations are based on past their early history. </p>

<p>Now that you mention it, forget everything I said about making the Ivies tuition-free in order to let the poor have access to them. They're better off going to a truly inspiring place like Berea.</p>

<p>Everyone on this website should take a minute and go to Berea College's website. Now THAT is an impressive college that never gets mentioned on CC and few know much about. Truly a "hidden gem'.</p>

26

<p>I totally agree that Berea is a great school. And if anyone has money to spare, make donations to that school.</p>

27

<p>1) Pton is at the apex of college financial aid with 55% of the students receiving. See <a href="http://daily.stanford.edu/article/20...creaseNextYear%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://daily.stanford.edu/article/20...creaseNextYear&lt;/a> for another compliment from a competitor about how agresssive Pton is with their aid DIRECTED AT INCREASING DIVERSITY!!!</p>

<p>2) The 1971 number for Pton is a one year phenomenon. All facts should be told, namely Pton's diversity numbers are as good if not better than any other elite school. They have consistently improved their performance if you look over 30 years.</p>

<p>3) Total endowment is misleading. Most large gifts are restricted...donor intent trumps everything. You can't take a donor's gift to the endowment for bioloogical research or 'naming opportunity' in brick and mortar and use it for free tuition instead. Therefore, the totals for endowment are very misleading. I don't think any of the schools could give 'free tuition' as they have little unrestricted money. That doesn't mean that they don't have incredibly large endowments. Simply put, people don't give $100,000 or more without a restriction. A popular restricted gift is for financial aid but it is always prefaced for students in financial need. I don't think donors would give to support the rich or upper middle class as some imply. At $50,000 all in cost, a lot of people need financial help that are considered middle class, a good use of financial aid.</p>

28

<p>Some info about Berea</p>

<p>Endowment: $868 millions.
1,414 undergrads.
Free tuition.
Room, board and student fee: $5,264.</p>

<p>Berea has many majors and minors, but in each there are few faculty. For example, political science has 3. There is a minor in Asian studies, but only one history professor. And so on. </p>

<p>As a result, Berea can provide a very solid education but not the range and depth of colleges such as ASWP, which have similar enrolments, or the larger mid-size research universities such as Stanford, Princeton, Harvard, etc...</p>

29

<p>marite: Berea might not offer as much depth, but the learning that comes from student-to-student interacton in the classrooms makes up for it because the students at Berea come from much more interesting backgrounds than most Ivy League students. Also, Berea students have a much better perspective on what the real world is like, because, unlike Ivy students, they've actually been there.</p>

30

<p>It depends how much one can learn from fellow students. If profs could be dispensed with altogether, what would be the point of colleges, including Berea? Does one really think that fellow students can make up for the lack of experts in a particular field? </p>

<p>As for "the real world," to my mind, it includes not only Appalachia but also Wall Street and main street. It includes backwoods and Manhattan. That's life.</p>

31

<p>marite: You make a very good point.</p>

<p>But, personally, I find the Berea College student body, as a whole, much more impressive than the student body of any Ivy. Here's why:</p>

<p>(1) Berea truly changes student lives, while the Ivies don't. Children of investment bankers go to the Ivies and become investment bankers. Students at Berea come from poverty in Appalachia, and leave college much different people than they entered. Also, Berea's graduates go on to do things that actually contribute to society, rather than doing things to fill their pockets with as much money as possible, like most Ivy grads aspire to do.</p>

<p>(2) Students applying to Berea do it on their own. They don't need to hire "admissions strategists" and "essay consultants" to assist them.</p>

<p>(3) "Admissions strategists" have Ivy applicants spend the summer in Appalachia, working with the impoverished, to "beef up" their resumes. Applicants to Berea have actually lived the life of a resident of Appalachia.</p>

<p>(4) All students at Berea have to do significant work on or off campus to earn their "free tuition." They actually sweat and get their hands dirty. Ivy students have mom and day write a check for their college costs. The poor at Ivies are simply given a "free ride."</p>

<p>(5) Berea students have much more experience thinking for themselves. They got where they are on their own, having to overcome a great deal of adversity. Ivy students have had mom and dad "calling the shots" for them since they were very young. Some were even enrolled in "elite" preschools in order to give them the "Ivy edge."</p>

<p>Give me a Berea College grad over an Ivy grad any day.</p>

32

<p>You have a very interesting take on what students at Ivies do. Have you met any? I'll bet that a very high proportion of students at HYP work--a change from my own college days when it was unusual for college students to do so. </p>

<p>I'm sure that being at HYP changes the life of a student from Appalachia just as much as attending Berea. I actually met one such young man. He and a friend were accepted at Ivies, he at Harvard, the friend at Princeton. No one in his community had heard of Harvard. Those who had heard of Princeton thought the name referred to a town nearby. So, nobody was particularly impressed! The young man who attended Harvard did spendidly, then pursued his dream career in the military. He did think that Harvard had changed his life. </p>

<p>Anyway, this is very far from your original post that Ivies should give a free ride to all on the dubious ground that it would help the poor. If Berea is so much more worthwhile than the Ivies, there is no point for the Ivies to admit more low income, is there? Not to mention giving a free ride to children of millionnaires and billionnaires who have not requested one...</p>

33

<p>
[quote]
You have a very interesting take on what students at Ivies do. Have you met any?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It appears that "old but wise" and a few others on this board have so skewed a view of what Ivy League students are like (I promise you that I, for one, don't have horns) that I'm beginning to question how many current Ivy students they've encountered in real life.</p>

<p>Don't get me wrong: I'm not particularly idealistic or naive. I've seen the numbers; I know that wealth and connections remain powerful forces, but that doesn't mean that these institutions are little Satanic machines run by and for the rich, forever crushing the hardworking people of Appalachia while the rich mingle and put on airs.</p>

<p>For example, let's address post 31 point by point:
<a href="1">quote</a> Berea truly changes student lives, while the Ivies don't. Children of investment bankers go to the Ivies and become investment bankers. Students at Berea come from poverty in Appalachia, and leave college much different people than they entered. Also, Berea's graduates go on to do things that actually contribute to society, rather than doing things to fill their pockets with as much money as possible, like most Ivy grads aspire to do.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Look, more than half of us are on financial aid. I know more people here who do work (cafeteria crew, 10 hours a week) than who don't. So far, I haven't met any "children of investment bankers" at Princeton; maybe they're all at Yale? As for my own parents - who never graduated from high school, much less Princeton - they were wondering how they'd get me into college AT ALL, until Princeton came along with some very solid financial aid. They're good, hard-working blue collar people, as good as any you'll find anywhere in Appalachia, and they're not the only parents. Again, I'm not going to claim that there aren't wealthy people here, but they aren't nearly as universal as you make it seem, nor do you particularly feel any "gap" between you and them.</p>

<p>Also, what's with the whole "Ivy kids are spoilt brats who only want to line their pockets" thing? Sure, a greater percentage of Ivy kids go into Wall Street than non-Ivy kids, but it's not because everyone here wishes only to make money while screwing over society. Imagine whatever state school you'd like, and then imagine flooding the recruiting fairs there with Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley promotions, telling any graduate from any major that if he has no idea what to do after graduation, he should just jump on board for two years and then can do anything he wants afterwards. College students, being normal, confused human beings, whether at Princeton or State School X would see this as an opportunity; there's no fundamental difference in character, merely that of opportunities. Whether that opportunity is fair or not, I won't debate here; it just seems strange to me that you're putting the blame here on a bunch of college kids here who really aren't that different from college students elsewhere.</p>

<p>That said, it's not like we don't do anything. Princeton grad founded Teach from America, which every year sends a decent fraction of students from across the Ivies into America's most run down schools. Plenty of of the "rich" kids here get up far earlier on Saturday mornings than I do so they can drive down to Trenton and work with school children there. We're human beings too, and like other human beings, have much of the same concerns about our world.</p>

<p><a href="2">quote</a> Students applying to Berea do it on their own. They don't need to hire "admissions strategists" and "essay consultants" to assist them.</p>

<p>(3) "Admissions strategists" have Ivy applicants spend the summer in Appalachia, working with the impoverished, to "beef up" their resumes. Applicants to Berea have actually lived the life of a resident of Appalachia.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, untrue for the vast majority of us, if for no other reason, because we can't afford it. I'm not naive enough to pretend that no one in my class of 1200-odd kids went for this; I'm sure people have. Yet a lot of simply could never afford to do so, and I know of many of the well-off who are absolutely against the practice and feel that it unfairly tilts the playing field.</p>

<p>It may be hard to believe, but most of us - like the kids from Appalachia - are just genuine hard working people who worked our butts off in high school to get here. It's quite sad to see that we worked hard to get from there to Princeton, and as soon as we got in, we were stereotyped to be the exact opposite of what we are.
<a href="4">quote</a> All students at Berea have to do significant work on or off campus to earn their "free tuition." They actually sweat and get their hands dirty. Ivy students have mom and day write a check for their college costs. The poor at Ivies are simply given a "free ride."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Geez...what's with this amazingly vitriolic stereotyping? Truly, it's hurtful to those of us who works quite hard here (you should see how I smell after cafeteria duty). And we ARE the majority.</p>

<p><a href="5">quote</a> Berea students have much more experience thinking for themselves. They got where they are on their own, having to overcome a great deal of adversity. Ivy students have had mom and dad "calling the shots" for them since they were very young. Some were even enrolled in "elite" preschools in order to give them the "Ivy edge."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I've seen this more on television than on campus. Again, I'm sure this does happen, but such students are more the minority on campus than you'd think. My parents had no idea what a Princeton or a Harvard was, and were shocked to find out that their son would be going to the other end of the country. I worked hard, I did the college research, I got in. No private counselors, no Ivy-targeted pre-school. Most Princeton parents are very supportive; some really cross their fingers that their son or daughter gets in, while others leave it up to the kid where he wants to apply to and go, being indifferent whether it's Princeton or State U. Few are actually crazed in the way you seem to think.</p>

<p>I have nothing against Berea students. The place sounds like a truly great opportunity, and I'm sure those who get the opportunity to go there are a fortunate bunch. But please: a lot of us at the ivies have worked really hard to get where we are, and we're very human 17, 18 year olds. </p>

<p>Let's try to keep that in mind?</p>

34

<p>Fizrandolph:</p>

<p>Well said. Princeton knew what is was doing when it admitted you.</p>

35

<p>Fitz: Sounds like you are a terrific student, and Priceton did indeed know what they were doing when they admitted you.</p>

<p>But, while some of your arguments are interesting, they are not completely valid.</p>

<p>Remember, nearly 50% of Princeton's incoming freshman class had parents whose incomes were so high that they paid "full tab" for an enormous college bill (nearly $50,000).</p>

<p>Of those students receiving financial aid at Princeton, the median family income was $90,000!!!!! Now, take a look at the demographics of the United States as a whole, and tell me what the median family income is. The median family income of the "poorest" students at Princeton is several times higher than the median income of US families as a whole.</p>

<p>In terms of your response that Princeton has a significant # of minority students, take a look at how they arrive at their statistics. Their "minority" formula includes African-Americans, Latinos, Native Americans and...........
Asian-American students. I would be very interested to see what percentage of the Asian-American students are in the lower socioeconomic category. I know of several Asian-American students currently attending some of the most elite colleges in the country, and a very high percentage of them come from very highly-educated families whose parents are in high-level professional positions. Also, many atteded prestigious high schools. Of course, not all Asian-Americans fall into that category, but I would love to see an overview of socioeconomic backgrounds of Princeton's Asian-American population. And, I would love to see what percentage of Princeton's "minority" population is made up of Latinos, Native Americans, and African Americans.</p>

<p>Also, take a look at the percentage of Princeton's student body that came from private high schools. Then, take that percentage and compare it to the percentage of students in the United States who attend private high schools.
A tiny percentage of America's students attend private high schools, while a high percentage (in relative terms) of Princeton's students came from private high schools.</p>

<p>The final "test" to prove my point that the Ivies cater to the wealthy is this:
I invite you to go out into each of Princeton's student parking lots. Count how many students' cars are worth more than the car your twelfth-grade English teacher drove. Then report back to me.</p>

<p>To attempt to compare Princeton's student body with Berea College's is ridiculous.</p>

36

<p>MotherOfTwo...
I'm sorry this thread has strayed from your initial post. I hope mini gets back here to respond to your information about the number of African American grads at Princeton in 1971. I saw where he made the same assertion in another post- that there are fewer now at Princeton than there were in 1971.</p>

37

<p>Old but wise...remember while $90,000 sounds like a lot a police officer and HS teacher as parents in most cities qualify for such aid and are a very good use for financial aid. Economic diversity is achieved by such awards, which has been a huge problem for many years at elite schools. </p>

<p>One of the problems you are having is understanding the incredible demands Pton's makes of entering freshmen. For example, they offer an integrated science curriculum for first years whose prereq is a 4 or 5 on the Physics AP with calculus...that means the kid had calculus in junior year and physics in senior year. Look at the college board web site and you will a few thousand kids meet this nationally, all of which are hunted down by local schools as well as the Ivys. My point is there not enough diamonds in this country as we should producing. Why aren't there a 100,000 kids nationally meeting the requirements including kids from the inner city? The problem unfortunately is much bigger than Pton who is at the end of the educational chain. Somehow we as a society think 70,000 kids graduating with communication and journalism majors and only 13,000 graduating with math majors is OK. I think our society would be better served by encouraging math and science (stop giving free tuition at state schools for communications majors and give it to math majors...just a thought).</p>

38

<p>Regarding $90K consider that</p>

<ul>
<li><p>for some faimilies, reaching that figure requies that a parent hold a second job (or contrib from orlder sib or other family member)</p></li>
<li><p>for some families, that $90K is supporting 6-8 people (a friend from Staten Is whose family income is around $90K, has 6 kids b/w the ages of 21 and 8; the older kids have attended Brown, Vassar and Wes)</p></li>
<li><p>b/c of its NJ location, P'ton is likely to draw heavingly from urban areas where the $90K, even for a family of 4, is a modest income</p></li>
</ul>

<p>As for URM students at P'ton - - overall, pretty respectable numbers: 9% black, 7% latino, 1% Native Amer; couldn't find figures for Brea.</p>