private vs public

<p>Again, I am not 'blaming' anybody for anything. I am just stating the facts the way they are. I am not interested in assigning 'blame'. I am simply interested in what the components of poverty are.</p>

<p>My point is that motivation and personal responsibility are factors that we cannot ignore. You can't sweep these factors under the rug and pretend they don't exist. Poverty is not simply about not having any money. Poverty can be, and for many people, is also a mindset. </p>

<p>I'll give you this example. Why is it that Caribbean-immigrant African-Americans (i.e. Jamaicans, etc.) and their descendents are significantly more successful than the average African-American? Can't just be a legacy of slavery - after all, those Caribbean immigrants are also descendents of harsh slavery. Can't just be racism - they're all of African descent. Can't just be not having much money in the first place - after all, countries like Jamaica aren't exactly wealthy. </p>

<p>Plenty of leading scholarship has determined that there are strong cultural and behavorial factors at play. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2000/02.24/i_waters.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2000/02.24/i_waters.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.virginia.edu/sociology/publications/vickermancrosscurrentswestindianimmigrantsandrace.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.virginia.edu/sociology/publications/vickermancrosscurrentswestindianimmigrantsandrace.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.caribbeangraphic.net/archive/commentary_july_5_2004.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.caribbeangraphic.net/archive/commentary_july_5_2004.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles5/SowellCulture.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles5/SowellCulture.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
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My point is that motivation and personal responsibility are factors that we cannot ignore

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</p>

<p>Amen. Motivation + personal responsibility = success by whatever measure you choose (income, education, strong families, etc). It transcends race and economic status.</p>

<p>On a level playing field this is true, but for many, specifically on racial and socioeconomic background, this is impossible.</p>

<p>
[quote]
So you say you're going to stop by declaring it publicly? What's wrong with this picture? If you really wanted to stop, you could and should have simply not replied at all.

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</p>

<p>If you would like to continue to hijack this thread then that is fine. I'm sure the people who want to discuss the public v. private issue truly appreciate that. I never really retracted my offer - if you want to discuss this, create a thread in the cafe. If, however, you merely want to get the last word in, then I understand why you continue to post in this thread. Sneaky, but you're not fooling me. :)</p>

<p>Transfer,
Are you saying that there is no hope for improvement if you are a minority or poor? I trust you don't mean that a combination of personal responsibility and motivation are wasted energies.</p>

<p>(Sorry for contributing to the hijacking!)</p>

<p>Lkf725, while I can't speak for Transfer, I am happy to report that history offers plenty of examples of certain peoples making tremendous strides in improving their lot through personal responsibility and dedication. </p>

<p>I would offer the example of many immigrants today, either legal or illegal, most arriving extremely poor by American standards (if they were rich, they'd have little reason to immigrate to the US), almost never being fluent in English, and yet finding success through sheer hard work and pluck. </p>

<p>For example, I know one Vietnamese family in my neighborhood who came here as immigrants fleeing the murderous chaos of the aftermath of the Vietnam War, arriving in the US with little more than the clothes on their back, and speaking no English. The family had 3 kids: one went to Harvard, and the other 2 also went to top schools (can't remember which ones right now, but I think they both went to MIT). This after arriving in America with literally nothing. Nor is this particularly unusual. Sowell documents in his book "Ethnic America" how plenty of Afro-Caribbean immigrants and their descendents become more successful than corresponding ethnic groups who were natively born here. For example, as I mentioned above, Afro-Caribbean immigrants tend to be more successful on average than the average native-born African-American, despite suffering from a legacy of slavery, racism, and poverty. As stated succintly by Sowell:</p>

<p>"a study published last year indicated that most of the black alumni of Harvard were from either the West Indies or Africa, or were the children of West Indian or African immigrants. These people are the same race as American blacks, who greatly outnumber either or both."</p>

<p>Finally, let's give credit where credit is due. African-Americans in the last century have undergone one of the strongest and most dynamic advances of any people in human history. Sowell himiself has remarked that 100 years ago, the vast majority of African-Americans were in desperate poverty and were desperately lacking in education, with the majority of them not even knowing even the basic literacy to know how to sign their own name. The last hundred years has witnessed, again according to Sowell, the advancement of African-Americans has been one of the moving achievements in history. The majority of African-Americans are now educated at at least a high school level, with a significant fraction attaining college educations and beyond, compared to the tiny fraction that had any sort of education a century ago. Most African-Americans today are not poor, whereas almost all of them were poor a century ago. The fact is, a lot (not all, but a lot) of the legacy of slavery has in fact been eliminated. But the point is, there is still more to be done. </p>

<p>The point is that eliminating poverty amongst minority groups is a two-front battle. Yes, racism exists, and we should work to eliminate it. That's one part of the battle. The other part of the battle is to continue to improve attitudes and self-initiative within those minority groups. The reason why Afro-Caribbeans are so successful is because they work very hard, to the point that I've heard people saying that those who work hard are "working like a Jamaican", and they also have great respect for educational achievement.</p>

<p>I certainly don't believe that if you're a minority or poor, that you have no chance to achieve great levels of success. I'm saying it's harder for those who are willing to work hard and have natural talents (i.e. are smart) to achieve the same levels as their peers from the nice, safe, white, subrubia 30 miles away.</p>

<p>Why would you be so simplistic as to assume I am arguing no minority has a chance? Come on.</p>